I haven’t checked out your(PLyczkowski) keymap yet but I would also chime in and say that Move, Rotate, Scale should be on WER.
I can understand the rationale of having it on ASD because if you touch type those keys are the resting position of three fingers of your left hand.
But having said that WER makes more sense. I wouldn’t exactly call it a convention as from what I could gather Softimage and Cinema 4D didn’t use those keys for their transform tools. But these are the keys that Maya, Max and Modo use.
If one of the goals of a new key map(I will go out on a limb and assume it is one of your goals) is to try and make it easier for people who are coming from other 3d apps or use multiple 3d apps in their workflow to use Blender than going with what they know would be really helpful.
Well I once again a better solution ( ASD ) is dropped because of so called “convention”. It seems people hiding behind " lazzyness" will always block progress.
Are you going to ask the GB team to test your QWER layout, and get feedback from them ?
You’re making it personal and assume it’s about “convention” and laziness. It’s about common sense and practicality. I’m going with what previous developers have thought through. (I’m sure they spent sleepless nights deciding which.) I’m talking about those devs of Silo and Modo, which were recent 3d additions, relatively speaking. Transform tools are in the QWER area.
I’m not making it personal (perhaps you are taking it like that). From my point of view conventional doesn’t mean better. And its not common sense, because if you dont bend your keyboard or hand and put your left hand fingers on qwer keys naturally you can see your pinky aligns with capslock or tab. When you do the same thing with asd you can see they align with shift or control.
And if you would like to respect the previous developers please do respect modifier keys like shift + ctrl. Since they are commonly used on every program.
On top of this ASD is a more “conventional - familiar” layout because of games. Blender has just has been released in steam and steam just allowed “workshop paid mods”. This means a new potential user base, and if we look at the daily average users of steam even 1/5 is a huge number.
I have addressed the modifier keys (Shift/Alt/Ctrl) in my other comment. You don’t have to add them in the QWER. Add and use them for tools that are rarely used. Why would I use Shift/Alt/Ctrl when transforming objects? There’s no doubt Shift/Alt/Ctrl are more useful and comfortable in the ASDF area. I agree with that.
I tried to point out the problem with this " You don’t have to add them " logic. It is not about if they are used in conjunction with transform tools.
It is about the proximity of the modifier keys to the transform tools - modifier keys ease of use. You see in order to select / deselect different components of the mesh (vert-edge-face) you need the modifier keys and mouse clicks. And after a selection if you are transforming these components then for ease of use their proximity will become important.
Right click + ( Ctrl + right click) + A = Translate > this is easier because finger alignment with asd.
Right click + ( Ctrl + right click) + w = Translate > this requires either your pinky finger be bent or your wrist be turned (which is not good if you are modelling 6 - 8 hours a day).
yii7, I don’t take your suggestions lightly. You have points. I’m always open for sound alternatives. I realized Blender is not Silo or Modo.
Personally, I’d rather leave the QWER assigned to the transform tools. Then do whatever you guys want. (I rarely use Shift/Alt/Ctrl with those keys in the current Blender or any other app for that matter, anyways.)
Personally this would be harder for me, my right hand is always on the mouse so I have taken to using my pinky to press the modifer keys on the left side, like it has to do when the you want to type captial letters that the right hand types for example. Now the same finger I use to press ‘1,q,a,z,’ with must be used to press the modifer key.
This would be easier for me my pinky can press the modifer key like it usually does when my right hand is on the mouse and the finger the I use to press the ‘2,w,s,x’ with when touch typing is free to do so:cool:
For my index finger typing brothers my heart bleeds for you, but I bet you the touch typist amongist will tell you that pressing Ctrl+right click +w wouldn’t be all that hard, you do them all with different fingers.
I’m sorry don’t understand what your are describing.
I don’t think we are talking about the same hand position , in ASD you still use pinky on modifier keys (actually thats whole the point). pinky on the modifier keys is not changed. If the user is right handed , I think it is safe to assume most people keep their right hand on the mouse, so I’m not describing a different usage.
" By the finger I use to press ‘1,q,a,z’ do you mean ring finger? If so I don’t understand your point or why you "must " do that ?
Maybe there is a problem in my example ; I used “+” as " then " . I didn’t mean to imply " at the same time" if its what you understood.
so right click vertex (select) then ctrl + right click another vertex (select shortest path) then A (translate) is what I meant.
Anyone with any experience with the current keymap shouldn’t have any issue hitting the top row of keys and the modifier keys. If you can hit shift+ctrl+alt+g, you can hit shift+r
PLyczkowski, can you elaborate on alt-navigation? I am eternally surprised at the amount of passion people have for consistency in controls and tools, along with their ability to ignore the vastly different viewport navigation schemes across 3d software. I’ve looked at all of the major 3d software’s viewport navigation maps, and there is no settled ‘standard’ in navigation controls. I’m a little concerned to hear you say alt-navigation, as that sounds an awful lot like maya’s navigation controls, which are much to LMB heavy for a modern program. People have middle mouse buttons, and it is a perfect place for viewport controls to live.
Indeed QER is also used but less frequently, including others like F,V. In ASD the hand is relaxed and modifier keys are more reachable because of alignment with the natural pose. In gaming W is not a problem because middle finger is longer than the other 4 fingers.
So if index and ring finger were same length as middle finger and pinky finger was shorter by half a length then qwer would be ideal. But they are not and I think ASD excels in preventing finger/hand fatigue, modifier key usability and number of users by gaming convention.
I use a tablet when sculpting, so adding Alt along with Shift and Ctrl is a must when:
rotating (Alt), stylus
zooming (Alt/Ctrl), stylus
and panning (Alt/Shift), stylus
That’s how I assigned my keymaps when navigating, which, I’m sure, most users do.
(I have discarded the RMB default long time ago.)
Even when using the mouse (LMB workflow) I’m comfortable using the same modifier keys when navigating. (Don’t even know what Maya and others have, and I don’t care.) Using the middle mouse button is stiff and uncomfortable when rotating. I’d rather use LMB +Alt/Shift.
The idea is the thumb rests on the Alt and can stay there for as long as you need it, along with pressing Shift and Ctrl with the other fingers when you also need them.
In 2D, all you need is the middle mouse button: Pan (MMB drag), and Zoom (Mouse wheel.)
I actually can navigate (when using a mouse) in 3d without using any modifers at all in Blender.
This is made possible when Zoom to mouse position is checked in the Userpref. Zoom to mouse position serves as a Panner, if that’s the term for it.
Good news indeed, it will save a lot of people automatically creating a QWER upon setup along with the familiarity for those coming in from some other applications and or gaming experience.
Regarding the Alt navigation, its almost a must at this point given the sheer quantity of applications using it now. One nativation modifier + mouse buttons (wacom pen buttons) for the rest. With the loop select… the ideal set up I have seen is double click on an edge loop and you get the whole thing. If I am not mistaken though, Blender doesnt yet recognize double clicks yet right? If thats the case some modifier key is probably needed or in some other cases the L key is used… (which I dont recommend as its quite far from the left side of the keyboard).
I could see a quick pie menu + swipe working well for such a feature as well. Press ___ and get a 4 way pie, swipe up and get edge loop, swipe right and get edge loop but with every other selection, swipe left and edge loop + invert (or whatever).
I am sorry but its not objectively a better solution. You are looking at it in a very narrow way and claiming people are lazy because of the convention is just silly. It could easily be claimed that you are “lazy” for not wanting to use a more established, used and tested way of resting hands on a keyboard.
Lets look at it this way… Do you think that if this ASD map wasnt proposed, that an overwhelming amount of people would on their own decide to change the keys to ASD? The simple fact is…and this is just reality speaking here… that no matter what key combo is used, a large portion of users will change it to QWER. This is in contrast to where the likelihood of someone changing it to ASD on their own is very slim, but WER will happen regardless.
Finally, let me end with this… you are still getting your ASD… because even in a QWER layout, two fingers will generally rest on (or can rest on) A and D. I think you might be under the impression that all 3 fingers have to rest on the scale rotate and transform keys at the same time, which is not the case.
As PLy pointed out, gamers have been doing this for quite some time and there are millions of gamers out there…many which are also 3d artist or potential 3d artist. ASD are still major players in a QWER setup. It might even be more accurate to say its a WASD set up with hand placement, but QWER with specific and consistent functionality tied to it.
Also dont forget there are tons of outside applications that will use this combo…Blender shouldnt be existing in a blender bubble, but also take into consideration how it interacts with other software such as the Unreal Engine 4 (which uses QWER and even has Alt +Mouse navigation), Zbrush, 3D Coat, Substance Designer…ect
That has a tendency to be copy and pasted a lot here on the forums. Its been already discussed and pointed where such a list falls short and whats being over looked as well.
That said, there is nothing wrong with a list of layouts though, but it must also include a larger pull of software and the options provided for users, whats legacy and what is adapted. For example, a large % of Modo users (including myself) use a navigation style built around the Alt + mouse buttons which is included and hard coded into Modo itself. The Orbit you talk about is just a trackball option you can turn on or off in any viewport, it should probably be off by default but its a minor issue. If there are options for different navigation styles in Blender, like other software, then theres no problem. The concern is whether or not some are less integrated than others or given very little interest in maintaining, which is what we saw with Blender at some point.
Ideally I would argue that the less modifier keys you use for navigation purposes, the more options you open up for the keyboard layout/functionality itself. Meaning those modifier keys probably shouldnt be wasted with juggling navigation functions. As such, one key + mouse (or a wacom pen which by default includes all 3 mouse buttons) is far more friendly. Its also more widely used in software that includes UE4, Viewports for Substance Designer, 3D Coat and a handful of other applications.
I thought that looking at what other programs choose to use as a default would be useful to this conversation. So given that other software should be considered, and that default controls are important, above you will find a list of the default view controls for other programs. It is merely there for reference.
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