Sometimes I wonder whether it’s cost effective and safer, in a long run, to recreate add-ons I use in my pipe for either MAX or Maya, and use Blender for modeling/UV mapping, and MAX or Maya for animation and export. Note it’s expensive to do so for a small indie, but in a long run could be worth the trouble. Something to put on the spreadsheet 
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What if someone moved all script accessible Api to its own seperate section?
then they would outline how much still needs python hooks?
Why is it so hard? That’s easy - there aren’t that many of them on the ground. Even less of them available/capable for the work you want.
There are many reasons for this - Blender is nowhere near as popular as alternatives, the Blender ecosystem tends to revolve around the open films, the API is… less than perfect, and the hobbyist base which makes up a proportionally larger chunk of Blender’s userbase isn’t going to invest time in learning more than they need personally. Combine that together and there aren’t a lot of people learning the Blender Python API for the purpose of hiring themselves out (as opposed to programmers/artists who DO learn MEL & similar for job prospects).
With that in mind, there is also the matter of how much compensation you are willing to provide. Python is not a hard language to learn and given the right incentive, freelance programmers will learn almost any API required. On the Python front, I learnt the ins & outs of Poser’s Python API for the purpose of creating a network renderer for a company that wanted that. Some six months later, Curious Labs started on their own. shrug
Good developers cost good money (I tend to run an average of $80-$100/hr). Bad to middling developers will cost you much less, but you generally get what you pay for (with the occasional pleasant surprise). How much are you offering for your add-on work? And I mean real dollar values here.
That depends. If a person already has a gig going for them (own business, job, etc.) and they express an interest in the project, it could cost a way less than that. Of course the caveat is that there can’t really be tight deadlines, but it’s not a big issue for me usually. I don’t know about python and Blender, but in game dev field it’s not that uncommon to deal with seasoned AAA devs (C++, OpenGL, crossplatform) at $20 - $50 per hr (taking into consideration circumstances I described above).
Plus, even at those rates you mentioned, when a task can take only several hours to be completed, I rather pay $80 for several hours of work done than $10 for days and poor implementation.
You would be surprised, but sometimes less experienced devs are willing to learn API on their own time, and work for less, but result is equivalent to $100 per hr top notch programmer’s job.
I’m able to make add-ons as long as you have the script. Unless you have an idea of the addon. making it would be possible.
I googled for MEL programmers and I got a ton of resumes.
This is very logical to happen, because it’s the result of what sort of maturity, Maya and Blender has in the 3D world. That means that Maya was usable in 2005 (and even in 1998), while Blender was just getting started it’s life, this explains the numbers.
one of those folks could actually help me with add-ons for Blender
This is a good option as long as the developer writes Python instead of MEL.
I sent you a PM yesterday.
I’m primarily a programmer familiar with both the Python APIs and the C source code.
I was on the Blender Network before but from my POV, there doesn’t seem to be a strong demand for Python addon developers, thus less developers. Part of it is due to Blender being younger and not as widespread, and of course the whole licensing deal for addons requires a different model.
I would agree with the sentiments about the Python API. It doesn’t feel normal, in terms of an OOP paradigm. For example, you have some data and want to perform an operation on it so you’d think there should be a method to call on it, but all of it must go through the context/operator madness (which somewhat reminds me of OpenGL).
Since the functions are wrapping around C code, it is naturally more convenient to take a funtional approach but I think some of the weirdness comes from the API trying to reconcile these two approaches. The UI functionality could be better abstracted.
From my point of view, most people are interested in blender mainly for artistic reasons. The ability to write addons commonly comes from frustration due to several flaws/limitations in blender.
It’s also very frustrating working with blender’s severely limited python API. It’s sort of like trying to write with your tongue 
In other words, it’s a very unpleasant business. No one loves doing it.
Still, I’d volunteer to help more often if people described their needs more clearly. A lot of the times, reading the “paid work”/“volunteer work” sections, you’ll see people just giving very shallow information about what kind of addon they want you to write for them. How do i know I’m up to the task if you can’t even describe what you want? I’m not going to send you a PM asking for more details, you’re the one in need of me!
Another thing is that there isn’t any real need of addon writers in the blender community. Most of the needs of the community cannot be solved with addons. And honestly, I don’t see too many addon requests.
I see a whole lot of “blanket statements” here, and I don’t see clearly exactly what the problem is.
If you want “a Python-savvy programmer who knows the Blender API,” okay, you found one: me. I’ve got thirty-five years in software development and my rate is $100 (USD) per hour. But we won’t be working by the hour. We’ll write up a contract that’s based on contractually-binding specifications, and the first thing that you’ll be paying me to do is to write that specification. That specification, furthermore, will be binding. No changes, unless you execute (and I approve) a change-order. You should basically budget $15,000 (USD) and be prepared to spend twice that if necessary. (Please understand that I’m gonna get your project through-the-pipeline very fast because I can bring down $150,000 a year easily, and steadily. You’re a “gig.” A project. A small project. Almost “piece work.”)
Are we still talking? Well, if not, then I cordially suggest that “there’s your problem.” Cheap programmers are cheap; good programmers are not. Also, good programmers are busy. Booked solid until fall.
I’m not being arrogant. I’m being frank. The work-product that you will receive, although it may superficially seem to be “expensive,” will be something that you can subsequently use … forever, for all I care … and it will work. Guaranteed. (In writing!)
To a seasoned, professional programmer, “Blender is just another API.” (A very good one, I might add …) And, for that matter, Python is just another language. (Ditto.)
I’m not an “exceptional” seasoned, professional programmer by any means. Just run-of-the-mill, one might say, but that does keep my personal “mill” running nicely. Land it, spec it, write it, ship it, support it, book the revenue. All in a day’s work.
@sundialsvc4: For once, I wouldn’t not want to work with a person with such attitude, regardless of how smart and experience you are and how much budget I have. $15k is not only unreasonable number, but plainly childish. I can purchase MAX with that money and hire a reasonable person to port all my add-on to MAX. And still have money left over to hire extra help on the art side. So there you have it - with your post you just unearthed one component of the problem :no:
FWIW, motorsep, his attitude is blunt and perhaps abrasive… but his facts aren’t far off base.
I recently invoiced $15K for the design phase of a project. The outcome - a document they sign off as detailing what they will pay (a lot more) for me to develop. Changes to the requirements entail more money paid to me as the project progresses. The company is not arguing about paying it either. Bespoke software development is not cheap. Custom add-ons are bespoke software.
If you can get someone willing to charge you less because the add-on tickles their fancy, they feel like dabbling in game development, and/or aren’t that great at development in the first place - that’s great. Good for you & good for them. To have any expectations that developers should offer their services compatible with your price range though is approaching the very kind of arrogance you are implying is the issue with sundialsvc4.
The average hourly rate in my country for the stock-standard software developer is $49/hr. This includes salaried workers so as you are hiring this person for contractual work, expect to add ~$10/hr as a reasonable estimate. When you get more than ten years experience, that average moves up to $71/hr. Again, this includes salaried workers so add more for the contractual work. This is just the average rates.
So when you are costing what it’s going to take for an add-on, these are the figures you need to keep in mind for an average developer’s expected level of recompense for their work. I know it sucks for your bottom line, but it’s not arrogance to point this out.
I chuckle… Are you customer’s garage indies? I didn’t think so. Perhaps in game dev world people have more common sense to charge large sum AAA devs and lesser sum indie devs, or perhaps there are so many people need help that having lower fees provides plenty more income than in regular software world? I don’t know. But now I clearly see why Blender isn’t worth messing with in production - cost of integrating will kill a studio. Cheaper and more efficient to buy MAX/Maya and enjoy life than dealing with Blender 
My customers range from two person (father & son) companies all the way up to government departments. Thing is, you are still looking at this from the point that your status as a garage indie somehow matters. It doesn’t.
Software development is a skill that the labour market has priced at an average of ~$50/hr here. A lot more if you have a degree of experience. We are going to sell those skills at around market prices because that is at least one of the reasons we obtained the skills in the first place. Just because you can’t afford them due to your “garage indie” status doesn’t make them over-priced or you entitled in any way to a discount.
Put it this way - a new car will (in general) cost you over $10K. It doesn’t matter whether you are a stay-at-home parent, a well-financed executive, or an aspiring indie developer - that new car is still going to cost you $10K+. You want any bells & whistles on that car, it’s going to cost you more. Again, regardless of your financial status or career choice. Same goes for development. You’d be laughed off the car lot telling one of the salesmen he has to sell you the car for less because of your career choices, the same applies for purchasing the use of our skillset.
Yes, that is indeed one of the reasons. MAX/Maya provide pipeline necessities that Blender does not. Despite Blender being “free” to download, install, and use - there is a cost in adding/customising it to do what the others can do out of the box. Where the functionality doesn’t exist, there is often a plugin already developed that handles it (with the cost of development amortised over hundreds to thousands of customers paying ~$100+ per license). And for those studios (like yourself) that really must have a custom add-on developed for their workflow, they hire people like me and/or a technical director (avg. salary for them here being ~$130K/yr).
$15K is about a years wages for most positions. It’s about right for programming jobs, especially those with knowledge but trying to get their first serious projects. Custom code doesn’t come cheap unless you’re prepared to learn and create your own.
@motorsep - you seem to be more interested in venting then finding a developer.
- Did you contact any devs listed on the Blender network?
- Did you find the developers who worked on existing commercial addons? (Blender Market)
- Did you check some of the active devs who already worked on addons and find their mails? (its not that hard, a bit of googling. if they’re active its likely they posted on mailing lists, committed to git repos… etc)
Finding good devs isn’t easy, but we’ve seen Python devs getting hired before and its worked out (CG-cookie addons, SketchFab, extra work on FBX for example). I’ve also done a little bit of Python dev via Blender-Institure too.
Not really. Venting comes when couple of high end devs come up with ridiculous prices. I get it, software development isn’t cheap. However, the add-ons I got didn’t take weeks to build. Which means these highly paid clever folks could probably have made it twice as quick. So I know that paying $15k for 1(!) add-on is pile of BS.
Yes Sir! Everyone who replied said they only do Python to automate certain things during production. They aren’t dedicated add-on developers.
Same story here - they made add-on because they needed it, and then it went into the market. I didn’t contact every single person though.
That’s how I got people to make add-ons I already have. The problem is no one wants to deal with add-on. Everyone who was involved either dropped Blender altogether or just switched to art side of things 100%. Haven’t dug deep yet to find contacts of people from the mailing list. I got one person from this thread currently and I’m gonna try to see it through with that person before digging around again.
Python devs who never worked with Blender before? I mean, there are a lot of Python devs for web, but if they don’t work with 3D and math, what good will they do when it comes to making add-ons?
The one specific set of functionality I looked at that you were after (the automated blend-shapes to bones video you linked to) is far more than a week’s work. We don’t even have code for baking blend-shapes to a set of predefined bones & their transformations let alone creating bone initial positions, their animations, and the bone-weights that will allow them to accurately reflect the blend-shapes.
Think about it, if it were only a couple of day’s work, would the Naughty Dog developer would be showing it off online? with all due respect, you impression of how easy it is to develop these things seems to be pretty far from the reality. Also, the $50/hr figure I gave you is the AVERAGE hourly cost of software developers, not the high-end. The high end starts at $70/hr and climbs steeply.
As I said earlier, the cost is set by the market, not your personal circumstances. Complaining that our prices are “ridiculous” ignores the fact that they are standard prices not only for us, but software development in general. I didn’t give you the highest amount I’ve been paid for a design document ($30K), I didn’t give you the highest rate I’ve been contracted out for (>$200/hr). I gave you the latest example of a design phase invoice I have and I took figures from the national salary stats database for the positions titled “software developer” and “technical director (graphics)”.
You do know that Blender is not the only graphics suite using Python right? Also, that one can be a Java, C/C++, and MEL programmer and also know Python.
Funny that you say that. I suppose it’s “thinking outside the box” that separates programmers. The script I have was written in ~3 hrs. It’s not as advanced as on the video, but it does exactly that - converts morphing into skeletal. Not to brag, but I personally developed the idea (since it was implemented a couple of years ago, I couldn’t have possibly known about Naughty Dog’s plugin), implemented it (using conventional means) and the programmer who did it built upon that.
That being said, I already have basic version. It just needs to evolve. And again, I already have idea how to do that using conventional means. Just need to put theory to the test, then have someone to put it into add-on.
Maybe they no longer need it and thus showing it to us? (figured out GPU driver morphing or something like that) Or simply using it for public relation purposes?
Those numbers are fine. I am not arguing. I am saying some people just interested in the product and helping devs and they charge less (“I like what you do, I am a fan of this and that, I’ll help you for lower fee” - real life scenario, but usually it seems to happen only in game dev). Some charge as much as soecified, but they do it pretty fast. I guess I have been blessed with people who works like a lightning bolt and I didn’t have to spend $15k per project (but, again, it was game dev stuff).
I am not arguing hourly wage. I am arguing total amount. Perhaps if I didn’t do R&D and design the solutions myself, it would cost me more. But as I mentioned before, I usually design solution, and simply need for a programmer to transfer that to the code.
Not sure where you are heading with this. Not knowing API will be a problem. And not having clean docs and examples and other materials that allow to grasp API quickly doesn’t help. So yeah, someone who made scripts for Maya may look into Blender’s API and say “WTF!?”. Plus, I stumbled upon devs who openly said that Blender is such an evil that they will not waste their time learning it, and thus since they won’t be able to test their work, they won’t code for Blender. I don’t blame them since I couldn’t wrap my head around Lightwave. People go with what’s easier to learn (for them personally) I guess.