You have to tell that to users like Andrew Price, Nathan Vegdahl and others why they want it to be the default. If making the LMB the default bothers you so much, then I can go with a fixed LMB option. Anything you want, sir. Takes 5 seconds to do it.
It’s not who’s right or wrong, it’s for peoples who discover Blender and other who switch from other applications.
The RMB is confusing and dos not help even if it’s good.
Someone said that the new keymap will be with the LMB so why arguing who’s right ?
Every one could make theyre choises and newbies will not confused whith that.
Blenderstorm was never officially affiliated, but it was started and maintained (until it wasn’t) by a Blender developer, Nathan Letwory.
I thought Blenderstorm suffered from some serious maintenance issues a while back (spam and other problems), it’s not the BF’s problem if the devs. decided to no longer respond as a result.
I honestly didn’t think there were so many people who still consider it a thing.
Please. A lot of games have been successful precisely because they’ve gone back to their roots and invented a better wheel.
Yup, that’s also evolution. This can of course also mean to go back to the roots in some cases.
And as you name it, they invented it better then. Means they learned from the former mistakes. And that’s what i mean.
MMO is just one possible end in the evolution tree. And was meant as an example for something very complex. Because a MMO is equal complex as a 3D software. Blender does definitely not compare to a “back to the roots” pong equivalent of let’s say a text software from the early nineties. It is a highly complex 3D software.
And there are other highly complex 3D software packages around. That’s where the evolution happens. As told with the wireframe example, it does not make any sense to start from scratch with the wireframe colours when other 3D packages have already invented this wheel before years.
Well, you can. But this invented wheel must be compared to the existing wheels then. And when the invented wheel is made of wood while the other existing wheels already uses high tech rubber, then there went something wrong. That’s why the look over the fence is so important.
Sure blenderstorm is developer-free. Imagine there was a whole website dedicated to telling you what to do. Would you really go there?
As a developer i always listen to my users. I even explicitely ask them how they want it, and what more ideas they have. User feedback is essential, since it’s the users who uses the software then. So the answer is: yes. Definitely.
A good example where user feedback would have been of big value is the tabs. There was moaning about hard to read vertical text while development. Means the feedback was there. But it gots ignored. Now, afterwards, the devs thinks about other solutions …
IIRC Blenderstorm was never affiliated with the BF. It’s just some user’s pet project. I’m rather surprised it’s still online.
Still, there were quite a few developers around at its time. But i get your point.
On the other hand, there are quite a few other areas where the users fills the gaps from the developers. Manual for example is a users pet project. And Blenderstorm was meant to fill the feedback gap.
Sometimes different is not better. When developers try hard to be different rather than good you can start to wonder what are their motivation for doing that.
Nobody tries to be different, everybody always tries to be better. It may not always work out, but don’t question their motivation.
Hi maybe new users need to read the following:
To use Blender, first you must understand how to select objects.
In the Panels & Menus: left click is used to press buttons, right click brings up the tooltips.
In the 3d view: right click to select objects & left click to place the cursor.
In the Timeline: left click moves the frame counter.
In the NLA Editor: Dope Sheet & Graph Editor: right click selects, left click moves the time line.
In the UV/Image, Movie Cllip & Video Sequence Editor: right click selects, left click places cursor/moves timeline.
In The Text Editor: left click select, right click copy paste menu.
In The Node Editor: left or right click select nodes.
In the Logic Editor: left click the buttons.
In the Outliner: left click select.
In the Info Header text pull-down: right click select text.
Once you understand this, it’s “One hand on the mouse, One hand on the keyboard” then we can move on to learning hotkeys.
Enjoy.
Lol. Yup, all very sensible /S
This is simply not the case for blender. Blender was the new kid on the block, the rebel who had a unique perspective that didn’t agree with the established and refined UI standards of that era. This aspect of blenders history has been explained before.
There’s no need to take offense to being adressed as a new user (you used the term “noob” to describe yourself in the post I quoted)
I’ve used the term for myself when I was still learning, and still do when I begin learning a new area of blender I haven’t yet explored (the video compositor is what I just recently dived into) But keep in mind that you did inadvertently trivialize the issue when you addressed it as a “non-issue”. It was important that it be clarified why it is indeed a real issue.
If you want to be emotionally scared from my post just to hold a grudge, be my guest, but don’t expect people not to call you out when you misrepresent issues you don’t understand yet.
It wasn’t even meant to be that offensive in the first place.
This is what I’ve been saying on the matter.
I learned Blender through RMB select back in 2007-2008, every day I wanted select to be LMB back then. Now I feel ‘stuck’ with RMB as my muscle memory, but I want new users to have the LMB select I never had, since I’ve been using blender for so many years I can just set my buttons to suit my muscle memory quietly (like the dinosaur I feel like).
And I think this could be one of driving issues with all UI changes; the old school users like me feel like they shouldn’t be the ones to reconfigure our UI, it should be the new guys. But I disagree, because we’re old school, we need to make sure there are enough people in the new generation that feel at home, lest there won’t be enough successors.
…that there is no consistency whatsoever as to which mouse button you use to select stuff.
Once you understand this, it’s “One hand on the mouse, One hand on the keyboard, and forget about there being a home row”.
It is far more than just LMB Select causing a review & refactor of the UI. It just happens to be the issue emblematic of the trouble in getting changes to the UI prioritised.
So how are you going to resolve conflicts such as LMB-Select vs. LMB-Paint? And why is the non-standard MMB-Focus not an issue for you? MMB has been firmly established as a shortcut to “Open link in new tab”. Clearly Blender is doing it wrong again.
Maybe Blender’s default setup should assign everything to the LMBs of three separate mice. And while we’re running out of desk space, let’s drop support for other non-standard input devices that might make newbie heads explode, e.g. the Space Navigator. After all there must be a way to dumb Blender down to a level where it can be operated by 100% muscle memory and 0% brain.
That there are a few issues left that needs to be solved does not mean to have the whole concept wrong. LMB select is definitely the bigger issue. And all other 3D packages have solved the by you mentioned issues already. That wheel is already invented. You just need to have a look over the fence.
There is no conflict. Selection is an action, same as paint, confirmed by the ability to undo an selection. In most applications there is a select TOOL bound to a keyboard shortcut, in Blender its bound to right click by default. The problem in Blender is that selection is a mish mash of modal and one off actions spread around mouse and keyboard combinations.
In most applications its much more consistent. The best way of selection I think was in SI followed by Maya.
There are selection tools/ops with filters. Tools can be toggled temporary by using sticky keys so you can ‘interrupt’ a modal tool by pressing a sticky and get back by releasing. Filters are objects selection can act upon(vertex/uv/edge/cluster/poly island/edge loop-ring/partial loop/particles/nurbs, etc.), you can combine them in pretty much any combination you can think of. The difference between tool and op is that tool is modal and you can stay in it to act on data, while op acts on selection or produces selection or an action. For example there is an edge selection tool (there are three actually, each with different type code for selection) and then there is edge loop selection op which extends the current selection to loops.
If you think of it that way you can understand the inherent limitations of right click selection since it can’t really be modal and non-modal at the same time which is pretty limiting.
So far it seems only Blender has solved them. Unless you believe that holding down Ctrl, Shift, Ctrl-Shift, Alt, Shift-Alt, Ctrl-Alt, Ctrl-Shift-Alt, Ctrl-Wtf or Shift-My-Alt to re-assign LMB on the fly is more convenient or easier to learn.
Hint: If you think it’s RMB-Select that keeps Blender in its niche, you are missing the big picture. There’s a whole lot of reasons why Blender has no place in the industry, and RMB-Select doesn’t even show up on that list. Just ask yourself, if Autodesk introduced RMB-Select tomorrow, what do you think would happen? Studios dropping Maya and 3ds Max because “ZOMG MUSCLE MEMORY!!!”? Yeah, right… Autodesk don’t adhere to standards, they SET them, and you LEARN them. Whatever they say or do becomes gospel. If they switch to rental licensing, people complain a little and then accept it because there is no choice. Switching Blender to LMB-Select does nothing but further confirm Autodesk’s leadership.
TL;DR: Making Blender’s UI as bad as Maya’s is not a strategy to challenge Maya.
So far it seems only Blender has solved them
No.
Hint: If you think it’s RMB-Select that keeps Blender in its niche, you are missing the big picture.
I am well aware of the big picture. It’s of course loots of other issues too. But RMB select is part of the problem. And it’s the tip of the iceberg. A very good example what this fuss is all about. See intention of BTolputt to create this thread.
Autodesk don’t adhere to standards, they SET them, and you LEARN them.
That’s simply not the case. LMB select was invented in the 3D packages under the Autodesk hood long before there was Autodesk. Autodesk bought those 3D packages. They were independand before,and have bent to the UI standards when they was developed. And Autodesk software is not the only 3D software out there. There are more than enough competitors.
actually i wish maya or 3ds max have them
can freely assign keys
when i check maya the only keys that can be add are modifiers
like you mentioned ctrl alt shift
there’s no function like if you double tap it will execute such command
or even the way you config Loop select or ring select into your own prefence
for example
in blender i can assign these freely
ctrl + click = loop select
alt + click = ring select
shift + click = Link select
toggle on and off if click
these are my setup at tablet at blender
yes its weird keys but i feel comfortable with it
i cant even change the spacebar in maya into another key or turn spacebar into modifier key
if you holding space it will temporary pan
holding alt + spacebar = will temporary rotate at navigation
holding ctrl + spacebar = will temporary zoom in zoom out
in modo and cinema 4d i can assign this setup without any problem
i feel maya is similar to photoshop
theres a limitation
in photoshop the 1-0 cant be assigned and its weird … because there’s already a numpad and i find numpad is much quicker and i use
to solve this i use autohotkey and swap those key 1-0 key
i tried auto hotkey at maya but i need more complicated script in order to work my own workflow
i wonder when will maya implement it … maybe in future? … but for now i stick with blender since im still new at 3d application and learning fundamental tools and its free
anyway as i know for Blender Modo and Cinema 4D so far are only function in input editor can assign freely but blender and modo is more advance and can do more complicated stuff
The left-select/right-context-sensitive menu standard dates back at least to NeXTSTEP, released in 1989, 25 (twenty-five) years ago. A human full generation ago. In other terms, it was a 10-year old convention when Blender main.c was first written.
Hey, let’s complain about Blender not using a mouse button for a feature it doesn’t have. That’ll completely invalidate the arguments for it actually using the mouse-buttons on a standard way for the features it DOES have. Clearly, if I pretend it’s not an editing program but a web-browser, the argument will be settled in my favour! :rolleyes:
And now we’ll just propose stupid stuff ignoring the fact the UI Team acknowledges the issue with LMB vs RMB Select and agrees that LMB Select as default is the way forward. If we keep making up nonsensical arguments, I’m sure we’ll be able to convince them the decision they made based on a rational view of the situation is just too logical for Blender and adopt our intransigence as their own!