Left-Mouse Select: Why All The Fuss?

General Forums Blender and CG Discussions
41

Again, let’s leave personal things out of it. I don’t care if you were personally affronted. Quietly report the post to the moderation team and stay on topic, please. Addressing a personal attack only distracts from the substantial discussion.

Should’ve figured I’d get semantic’d… I wrote “new”. I meant “different”.

Unfortunately, open source simply doesn’t work that way. And even if it did, there’s no swarm intelligence in this case. There’s many competing and contradicting opinions… most of them equally easy to rationalize.

42

Should’ve figured I’d get semantic’d… I wrote “new”. I meant “different”.

^^

Still, when the goal is the same, why has the path to be different? What is so evil to have a look how other software has saved a problem, adopt it, and simply make it even better then? Which is how software development usually works. Why has it to be different instead?

Unfortunately, open source simply doesn’t work that way.

Well. I have seen open source with a very open mind towards user wishes. Krita for example. And i have seen open source with a very closed mind towards user wishes. Blender for example. So we should better say, it’s not how it works in Blender.

43

Blender was already different… for a long time. If you take something from another program and bolt it on to something that’s got fundamental differences, you don’t get “better”. You get “inconsistent”.

Also, “simply make it better” is an interesting phrase… as if making something better is really a simple exercise. If these discussions have proven anything, it’s that it’s difficult to even agree on what makes something better in the first place.

Krita is a relatively young project with a userbase that I’m pretty sure is smaller than Blender’s (for the time being… it’s growing quickly). This affords it a luxury of flexibility that Blender doesn’t have. Furthermore, Krita’s mission is different from that of Blender’s in that it’s more narrowly focused. Blender developers really don’t have closed minds toward user wishes. The problem is that Blender’s users (as I’ve mentioned before) have widely varied and often contradicting use cases. It’s very difficult to service them all in a way that everyone is happy (or even equally unhappy). And then add to that the fact that some user wishes are more complex to solve than they might appear… yeah. It’s not about open or closed mindedness.

44

Since the UI team is already working on the LMB default and the keymaps that go with it, one way to speed up the process is to release initial builds so that users would have an early feel of it and might be able to contribute some suggestions. It’s easier to detect issues when you’re actually using it.

45

Oh, better not. Some users might assum this to be the final version and getting used to it. Later, when the real final version is released these users will complain why someone wants to change this heaven send software. :smiley:

46

Deleted
Sorry, double post.

47

Also, “simply make it better” is an interesting phrase… as if making something better is really a simple exercise.

The phrase here means evolution. Evolution does not start over at the first cell again and again.

I mean stuff like grabbing a round woodwheel and make it even rounder, maybe with an iron mature to pimp it up. And not invent the wheel from scratch and end in something square.

Stuff like starting with a Pong and end in a MMORPG. Which is not done by one company. But across many many companies and game genres over the years. So when you want to make a MMO, then you better have to look at other state of the art MMO’s, and not the Pong.

Stuff like having a look how other software has implemented Wireframe colour, adopt it to Blender, and make it even better. And not invent the Wireframe colours from scratch and end in something where everybody is unhappy with, because it contains all the beginner mistakes that other software has solved since years, plus a special something here and there to make it different …

Krita is a relatively young project with a userbase that I’m pretty sure is smaller than Blender’s (for the time being… it’s growing quickly). This affords it a luxury of flexibility that Blender doesn’t have. Furthermore, Krita’s mission is different from that of Blender’s in that it’s more narrowly focused. Blender developers really don’t have closed minds toward user wishes. The problem is that Blender’s users (as I’ve mentioned before) have widely varied and often contradicting use cases. It’s very difficult to service them all in a way that everyone is happy (or even equally unhappy). And then add to that the fact that some user wishes are more complex to solve than they might appear… yeah. It’s not about open or closed mindedness.

Maybe it’s really not that the developers don’t want to. But the fact remains that Krita is very open to suggestions. While the Blender developers have closed nearly all communication paths towards the usership. There is definitely a difference. So you cannot say it is a open source problem. It is not, it is definitely a Blender problem.

Mailing lists mainly happens without developers nowadays. Blenderstorm is already completely developer free. Feature requests in the bug tracker gets moved into a to do list, and then luckily forgotten. And so on. And this doesn’t only affect to users. But also developers. See the patch review dilemma.

So for me it’s not only the masses and the contradicting opinions that is the problem here.

Pages like Blenderstorm shows that the situation was not always this bad than nowadays. Else it wouldn’t exist. There was a will to listen to users in the past that is simply gone nowadays.

48

Krita is 10 years old already.

We also have frequent ‘this is in program x, can it be in krita’, and sometimes even ‘this should go because it’s not in photoshop, therefore useless’(aimed at a.o. special spacing options, the assistants, the eraser, the pop-up palette, etc.)

Similarly, there’s sometimes a little frustration amongst the programmers that they can’t work on innovation because people constantly request things from other applications. So not all is ideal in Krita land. Add to that it’s not certain development can keep up at this pace due to paltry finances… Well, expect lots of Krita kickstarters in the future :confused:

On the positive side we do get a lot of nice feedback about the program being fun to use.

49

I think it’s because LMB Select breaks the very paradigm that makes Blender’s interface superior, which is

MMB = Focus
RMB = Selection
LMB = Action

For example, consider weight painting. In Blender, you can rotate/zoom the 3D view (MMB), select a bone (RMB) and manipulate the corresponding vertex weights (LMB) with the mouse, while your other hand is holding the coffee cup. What exactly is the benefit of LMB Select here? How will you avoid conflicts between painting and selecting? What should RMB do instead? Switch between select mode and paint mode via context menu?

Maybe your hope is that LMB Select will silence criticism of Blender’s user interface, but I doubt it will do so. On the contrary, I think LMB Select will open a whole can of worms by creating a precedent. If Blender’s UI is supposed to adhere to “standards”, here’s a quick list of other non-standard things that need to be addressed as well for the sake of consistency:

  • In a standards-compliant UI, an object’s state is either selected or unselected. There is no such thing as an “active” state.
  • In a standards-compliant UI, operators treat all selected objects the same way. There is no such thing as “Bake Selected to Active” or “Parent Active to Selected”.
  • In a standards-compliant UI, LMB drag and drop moves objects, Ctrl-LMB drag and drop creates copies, Shift-Ctrl-LMB drag and drop creates links, and RMB drag and drop presents all three options in a context menu.
  • In a standards-compliant UI, the system file selector is used for Open and Save As operations.
  • In a standards-compliant UI, menu bars are at the top, not at the bottom.
  • In a standards-compliant UI, error messages are presented in modal system dialog boxes.

I could go on here, but I think you get the idea. LMB Select will do very little to make Blender’s UI more standards-compliant, but it will encourage more UI threads for sure. The UI team will be facing a choice between drawing a line in the sand somewhere or rewriting the entire UI from scratch.

Regarding standards, it is worth remembering that twenty years ago when Ton and his fellows at NaN agreed on RMB Select, the Apple Macintosh came with a frigging one-button mouse and was deemed the pinnacle of user interface design. A decade later it came with a four-button mouse and was still considered the pinnacle of user interface design. The bottom line is that standards don’t matter as long as you can explain the reasoning behind your design decision.

50

To me the RMB will always scream, “Help!” or “I need a clue.”

The issues that were brought up in SK’s video citing the RMB advantages were really just optional workflows out of many. Like the case where the RMB select with the manipulator obstructing the view. By instinct, I turn the manipulator off with Ctrl+Spacebar and pressing X,Y or Z to lock the movement. And it’s funny when you think that pressing shortcut keys is a way of life in Blender, and you can’t be bothered with pressing Ctrl+Spacebar? I see the same thing with the other cases cited, but there are options like adding a toggle key to enable your “action” button. And if the RMB is context sensitive or at least customizable, you can add toggles in there.

Bottom line is you gain some advantage in some, you lose some in others, and vise versa. I’d rather go in the direction of the future. In more advanced CAD apps like Inventor, Solidworks, etc., the RMB is made extremely context-sensitive. You pick specific items, for example, the RMB gives you the menu you need. I saw a recent video where you don’t even have to click it. Ghosted input parameters appears automatically in the form of buttons, small input windows, etc. in the vicinity of the cursor.

This whole opposition to making the LMB the default is unnecessary when you think about the word “DEFAULT” in the computing world. It means there’s an option for you to switch back to the previous one in just 5 seconds.

51

If defaults are no big deal, why are you guys so hellbent on changing this one?

52

The existing switch isn’t comprehensive and breaks the keymap in a few situations (not a lot, but some). This means that changing the default means breaking the keymap. If LMB select were a first class citizen, accessible by a quick toggle, there would be less complaints. As it stands, the quick toggle that everyone gets directed to when they are first starting doesn’t work fully, which leads to complaints.

53

So we can move on. This issue will never go away until it’s settled. I’m curious why you are bothered by it.

54

The issue was settled two decades ago. Why resettle it in your favor unless it bothers you more than me?

55

Actually, it was an issue created two decades ago. :wink:

56

… when those bothered by it had yet to finish elementary school … :wink:

57

You already have what you always wanted and have been benefiting from it for years. It’s not going to go away. No one is taking it away from you. Others want the some LMB love, but they’re not getting it. It’s broken. I still don’t get why you’re mad.

58

You underestimate the age of some people on these forums, mate. My eldest child is thirteen. :wink:

59

If the LMB option is broken, I’m all for fixing it.

However, it seems that the only acceptable fix for you is to make LMB the default setting.

60

And you consider the microtransaction-oriented, boring tripe that is MMORPGs to be the height of accomplishment? Please. A lot of games have been successful precisely because they’ve gone back to their roots and invented a better wheel.

Oh, they’re perfectly open to suggestions. From personal experience, there’s probably a dozen or so things I suggested that have eventually been implemented throughout the years. Obviously they’re going to reject some of them. And obviously they’re going to ignore all of the ones irrelevant to whatever they’re working on at the time. And obviously they’re going to reject the ones they simply don’t like. Make better suggestions at the right time and the right place and you’ll be heard. But don’t repeat yourself. If your brilliant idea hasn’t caught traction, just accept it. Sooner or later there will probably be an opportunity to revisit it.

Sure blenderstorm is developer-free. Imagine there was a whole website dedicated to telling you what to do. Would you really go there?

Well of course feature requests are put on todo lists. Would you expect them to drop whatever they’re doing and start coding the new feature whenever someone posts some new pie-in-the-sky request? Blender’s TODO lists work as intended. They’re lists of stuff some devs think would be nice, but don’t have time for. There is only so much time to go around.

IIRC Blenderstorm was never affiliated with the BF. It’s just some user’s pet project. I’m rather surprised it’s still online.