Do degrees matter?

General Forums Blender and CG Discussions
21

I am in education and also working in the field :wink:

Maybe you should look into how HR internally works when applying for jobs and what they look / scan for.

Specifically what spelled out degree requirements are.

And yes when Apple contacted me if I am interested to work for them they saw my work what inspired them. But the moment you get to HR often degree is key in the way how the analyze and weed out applicants.

A small studio or personal client is and can be a totally different structure.
But most people are employed at companies.

22

Radian can also be useful, depending on what you’re doing.

And yes. I have yet to see a single job listing that at least doesn’t claim to prefer having a degree in art, animation, computer science or engineering. I think they would be willing to hire someone without formal training, but I’d imagine that they will want more than a portfolio and software skills limited to GIMP and Blender. I’m curious what such a studio would think of such an applicant, and what kind of reputation Blender artists have in the industry. I have my suspicions…

If you’re willing to go at it independently as a contractor or entrepreneur you can probably do it on results alone as software doesn’t much matter when you’re in complete control over pipeline. But that isn’t for everyone.

23

I’ve worked both freelancing and at a studio (web dev) and not once has anyone cared about my education level. I got hired simply because I could do work better than the other applicants. Anyone can cycle through a stack of portfolios and pick out good artists from bad. Art is just one of those skills like music, foreign language, etc that can be easily demonstrated.

Some artists even suggest avoiding art school in favor of alternatives because the cost has ballooned so much (in the US): Don’t go to art school

24

I do not think I’d hire someone on portfolio alone, at least not in a production setting. I’d want to see what kind of collaboration work they’ve done. The scope and range of technical skills they have, and related, how willing they are to learn new skills. A lot of this stuff you’re just not going to get by sitting in your mom’s basement working on Blender, no matter how awesome the results are - and I have no doubt, with enough dedication, they’re going to be pretty awesome.

I agree, you don’t have to go to college. But pretty pictures alone I don’t think are enough, and I think that is where a good animation program will help. Frankly, I think it’s little help to get this kind of advise from people who have already managed to find themselves in industry. For every one of you, there are many more talented people who are struggling because they have yet to find that break which leads to a stable career.

A degree helps get that going. It won’t ensure that you get a job in the end. You have to put a lot of effort into it, especially at art school - because I agree, you have to stand out. Of course at the same token, it’s going to be hard to compete without a degree when so many people have one, and have had 4-6 years dedicated to improving a portfolio, collaboration with others, and learning a wide variety of software at student discount prices (seriously, I have well over $10,000 of software installed, it’s kind of overwhelming).

25

A bit of rancor in some posts. How about a civilized, nice simple list of pros and cons?

Pros of Formal Art Education:

1.) It offers a structured, disciplined environment with real-time input from a teacher/professor

2.) A degree (if you graduate) – depending on the school, this might add some clout to your resume/application

3.) Free/reduced price access to top-shelf proprietary software

4.) Being taught said software by a professional in the field with credentials necessary to teach it

Cons of Formal Art Education:

1.) Monetary expense. Art schools can be expensive, and starting a professional life in heavy debt is usually a bad idea

2.) Bureaucracy. University education, especially in a field like graphic arts, which is subject to such rapid change, can be cumbersome. Often, when hiring people who have a degree in art, a company must still offer refresher/training courses to their new employees because a university takes roll-over time to approve curricula, update software, books or whatnot. By the time a four year art major is done, the world has changed around him.

3.) Time expense. My friend here in Florida is attending Full Sail University to learn 3D CGI. He saw my work and wanted to do it, too. Problem: he’s got to work full-time, and attend classes. He’s got practically no time for anything else. This can lead to a LOT of stress. Attending school and working to support yourself can be incredibly stressful.

My conclusion:

Carefully consider the costof a formal art education. Make a decision based, not on a brochure or on someone else’s experience in life, but on your own personal circumstances.

Dan

26

  1. you make the error to think what have worked for you will work for everybody else. that is quite a naive and short sighted view.
    A degree does not get you a job, a good portfolio is needed obviously. but what you can experience during school time is nothing
    you can show learn in a portfolio.

  2. this don’t go to school comment is also quite narrow minded. I have two degrees and no debt. I see a lot of students succeed and many later not. fact is there are bad students and bad schools. but fact is most students who fail later are either not qualified but still decided to attend a design/art school or also just did what they asked to do performing like high school students and not realizing that
    they are wasting their 4 years of college time.

27

I’m not naive or short sighted; I’m 34 years old with experience, and more importantly, impartial. :stuck_out_tongue:

Here is a real application for a character artist at Epic Games – notice the complete lack of education requirements in qualifications? To get a job with a studio, you typically send them a portfolio, if they like what they see, they’ll usually have you do an art test. If you have the skills to pass the art test, they’ll probably hire you; if not they won’t.

How you get the skills to pass the test is really up to you. You can go to College, or you can go get trained by a Kung Fu Master on the top of Mount Fiji for all they care.

Nobody is slamming the quality of education received at College. The question is if you need a degree or not – which in art you don’t. Rising Student Loan Debt is a huge problem in the US. It’s even a Presidential campaign issue. Therefore, for a lot of people, it’s a better option to get art education via the alternatives.

28

I mentioned this narrow view because you use one example of a company to explain the complete field of 3D.

I can send you all the linked in job offers I collect for my students and they all have degree requirements and quite often
are also specific to a focus and do not accept related degrees.

Animation and game design might be different because in that area the industry is gladly a little more open minded
the rest is not at all.

Just getting a degree is also not the same as making the best use of a degree. There are worlds in-between.
The reason why I say this is because too many get into schools while they are not qualified and later are frustrated with the consequence.

I however would not have been able to reach that level of understanding without the exposure and impressions I gained during school time.

When you apply for jobs there are also different classes.

Are you hired to be a person that executes like a drone or are you a person that will create.

The most frustration thing in the US is that there is nothing else left than college to gain any education/training. The development of rising costs, a disregard for apprenticeship education, and I must have a party campus are actually in many cases voters in the US are aware of and yet did nothing about in the past 20 30 years.

29

I can understand why they wouldn’t want to pigeon-hole talent like that, I think many studios probably avoid that sort of thing. For one, talent can come from a wide range of areas and there are relatively few schools that actually teach animation.

But likewise this hardly means that they do not take education into account.

More pressing, what are these “alternatives”? I’m doing VFX Direction on two student films right now. This translates to a wide range of skills that I couldn’t realistically get if I weren’t in school.

Us artists really like tooting our own horn about how unusual we are, and how “talent” is rare. But it’s not. Go onto any of these forums and you’ll come across thousands of extremely, extremely talented people. Hell. There are twelve year olds out there who can “run cycles” around me. There really isn’t any lack of talent.

Portfolio is important, you have to be able to actually accomplish a product; you’re not going to get in the door without a solid portfolio. But it’s hardly the only thing that an employer takes into account. From my experience what things really boil down to is experience. And without college, that is nearly impossible to get.

30

No, you’re twisting what I said. I made no claims the complete field of 3D operates like Epic Games. It’s an example of a place that doesn’t have any education qualifications. The whole thread is whether or not you need a degree for a career in art. The answer is no. There are plenty of studios that don’t pay any attention to whether or not you have a degree. I don’t even know of one that does, and I’ve looked into a lot of art studios.

If my example of an actual job application is narrow viewed, but your Linked-In examples are evidence of artists needing degrees or whatever you’re trying to say, we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t have the patience to argue in silly circles like some of ya’ll do.

31

where I fully agree with you is the choice and problems with the educational system

the usa had once a good if not a better public education and a strong employment of the apprenticeship trade training.

but over the years those who run school, those who decide funding for schools, and those who developed the financial aid
turned education you have to earn and where admission should be limited into a product for sale.

in addition compared to other nations during college the curriculum if filled up with uselss and badly taught general education
classes trying to make up for the deficiency created during high school.

Obama mentioned that a German high school degree is equal a 2 year college degree. What he did not say his that the majority
in germany does not go to high school. they finish 10 grade and go into 3 year ling apprenticeship. graphic design and such included.

if you go high school chances are high you will do this mainly because you want to study and thus highschool is also weeding out.

The madness in this country is mind blowing. A school has to be accredited but at one point it was even ok to have facilities like junk factories award bachelor degrees. This resulted that now design / art facilities try to apply to a new accreditation program to look better. But in reality that new accreditation stiffns education freedom even more - turning it even more into a one way high school mentality degree factory.

But the thing and truth is like with public education and how people swarm around charter schools who do not fair better even suck money out of public schools tax funds while dumping unwanted students like flies around over ripe fruits.

The public could also have stood up and said: no to for profit money in education, free right for choosing the school, equal access to school no matter of your wealth or background. parents could also tell their future students that a campus does not need a footballl stadium and that college live experience is not really the true value but you academic learning is. it is a 4 year long once in a life chance.

Sadly I think we can count the amount of public outrage and demonstrations on one hand.

32

I am not an artists - I studied design.

As I said maybe in the game and animation industry it can be different. But I highly doubt that as long as you are not outrageously awesome that you will get into higher positions without also the connections and academic background.

But I think if we do a sum of all field related to 3D that the majority will require a degree.

The OP also asked about the field of 3D and not just only art.

33

While admittingly a pretty extreme example, here is list of directors at Pixar.

While it is certainly possible there may be someone on that list without a degree (or in the least some college experience), the overwhelming majority certainly do.

34

That is my point.

At an animation company you have many different jobs ranging from executing designs - making models, painting textures, etc. to the creative part namely developing the concepts and managing the project. The higher you want the higher your skill has to be and probably also some formal education.

So does Apple employ Alias modelers who never can do anything else and designers who work on the concepts.

So does GM have clay sculptures, Alias modelers, and transportation designers. The first two only execute what the trans designer needs.
And there is no I start as a clay modeler and will become a trans designer nor do I think there is I will model with Maya and later be a director at Pixar.

The thing is also based on your background and skill even your pay can and will vary. Just because of that I would be really serious about a formal education and selecting the right facility.

Fact is also you are either gifted or not.
No college degree will make you a good artist if you are just not suited.

But truth is that often later graduates blame schools for not having them taught enough (talking about good schools).

But this goes back to the criticism I mentioned with the current structure of education.

I hardly think that if you are skilled and get a decent formal education that the education was bad for you.

35

I think one of the biggest problems the higher education system presents is that it is viewed as mandatory to get a good job. After manufacturing jobs were gutted out of America, the opportunities for someone without a college degree to make a living wage became rarer and rarer.

There are a number of studies that show that income increases with educational level. Most of those studies are done by universities. Anyone spot the conflict of interest there?

So a bunch of High school kids hear this well funded propaganda and all line up at their local universities. Some of those kids are the really bright ones that really want a higher level of education. A lot of them aren’t as bright, but still want the economic opportunities promised by those well funded studies. after 4-5 years, most of them end up with degrees.

Now the job pool is flooded with a ton of people with degrees, some of which were never even really cut out for college (not to demean anybody, There are a ton of people who would make great fabricators or carpenters or bricklayers, but those jobs aren’t as available anymore) With all these people now vying for “college educated” jobs, employers are seeing a dilution of the quality that a degree used to represent. I think that a degree is a much less trustworthy indicator of how good an employee is than it was 40 years ago. So now employers look at your degree with a bit of distrust, because there’s a million university of phoenix online bachelors grads that flooded the market. Having a degree doesn’t make you stand out, and a lot of employers are looking for someone who stands out from the crowd. But a great portfolio will indeed make you stand out.

Requirements vary greatly for different positions. some will always require a degree, some may not. I think in the next 10 years we’ll see more young students finding ways to make it work without college, which will free up more bandwidth in the universities for the careers that really need a higher level of education.

Again, if your government will pay for college (actually pay for it, not just “generously” loan you money) by all means, Seize the opportunity. If you are looking at a $50,000+ ball and chain you will have to lug along well into your 30’s, make sure that that is what you want and that it is the best way to get what you want.

cekuhnen, most Americans are in that second category, so Please let that temper the advice you are giving to people here. You are telling people that they need to go into crippling debt right at the moment they should be starting to build financial stability. I’m glad you were able to get both of your degrees and have no debt, but that isn’t an option for the vast majority of people now. I’m also glad that you are able to make an income off of those students crippling debt, but don’t let that blind you to the consequences.

36

While I am in academia - I personally love learning - it is not for everybody. And I fully agree that this a college degree is a must have is a silly idea. Not everybody is made for this type of a learning environment. Some are more practical learners. And a college degree should also not get close to the level of what an apprenticeship is.

It also lead to the devaluation of the degree. The high school diploma is already useless. And now the bachelor degree get hit hard that sometimes a masters is more valued because it is harder to get than the bachelors degree.

Fortunately as you mentioned Sterling, the current gov put an end to certain junk factories and they closed doors for good. But the problem of for-profit crap universities still exists.

But partially I have to somewhat hold also students responsible when they decided to go to those universities. When I came fresh of the boat I was quite quickly aware of what ITT and such only offer and do. It was not hard to find out either online or by asking. And flashy TV adds with a girl in sleeping cloth advertising how easy it is to get a degree ah well they made me suspicious anyway.

There was and still is a lot of predatory behavior in the teaching industry.
Faculty are actually the victim of that system as well. And trust me the majority would like to change the system.

And that is Sterling why at my facility I have the reputation I gained. While I cannot influence how education is funded, or what students have to pay the university to attend my class, I try to offer them a set of knowledge and education that goes somewhat beyond what most other classes only offer. Meaning I do a lot more than I am actually contracted to do. It stresses the students
out a lot in the beginning of a semester and by the end they realize that actually they get more out of the class then at the local elite design school where tuition is around 21$k for the academic year.

So at least I try to give them the set of tools so that after graduation they can stand out and get a job that enables them to pay back their loans and those ridiculous interest fees with it.

Out main focus in what we teach is to actually nurture entrepreneurship. And I hear many students complain about the volume of homework, or that research is boring, or nobody taught them how to do x y z.

The things is - education will not change without a big shift among those who buy into it. And it will be hard to say good buy to the beloved college football and stand with signs outside the president office and demand academic excellence and cheaper prices and not a college experience. Consumers here have a lot of power but do not use it.

But never the less is it in everybody’s opportunity to make the most out of it. And there are students who are just misplaced and will end up with debt and no chance to work in that field. They are the victim of this system. And they could also have dropped out earlier and faced the consequences. But there are also many students who just slide through, who could be better by being more serious about their own educational goals. This group is actually not small. It is rather large.

In short it is a messed up situation but I think you can still prosper in it.

On the bright side, here in Michigan car companies realized that this idea to send somebody to a community college or university is stupid when they need hands on skills on a really refined level. And thus are bringing back the apprenticeship education. But this is not nation wide sadly.

The companies sponsor the students - the way it should be - because the companies later will benefit from better trained workers.

37

This is so true and actually number one reason why students in my class under perform when they do. I teach using different methods so students can learn with their preferred personal learning style.

But if there is no time there is not time and no matter of what I try to do, the outcome is and will always be the same.
It is painful and annoying to see students stressed out about it but one cannot lower the needed workload to adjust to that either. One would not do them a favor. So we also have students who take some years to finish a degree and many of them I know work in the field now as well. Quite successfully actually because I think they had more brain time to process the information.

I love how England also does tuition. You have to pay, but only pay back when you get a job and are financially able to pay it back. This puts a lot of stress and responsibility to the universities not just to pump out degrees but make sure they teach in a good way. But you are right here with all the bureaucracy it is a pain. But honestly one can also work around it. I work at a research university and have full freedom to teach what I want with what software I want. So while we cannot makeup new classes we are however really in control of what we teach. Obviously if you go to a school where the curriculum is set into stone it might be an issue - but I found this often only to be the case for foundation classes to make sure the students all have the same basics hammered into them.

38

Nice @shawn.kearney :slight_smile: Sooner or later… as everyone sways, tends to tilt in favor of a higher ground.

In the line of… to know what skill and artistry it takes…
An Evening with Blur Studio – Demo Reels, Interviews & Industry Realities
aired on: Thursday, January 14th, 2016, 7:30 -10:00 pm
>source<

39

I think it’s very interesting that im pur society it’s perfectly acceptable to take out a loan on a $50,000 boat or sports car or RV, things that are not only frivolous but depreciate immediately after their manufacture, but it is completely unacceptable to invest in your education with a student loan.

That investment must be used wisely, but there is significant evidence that in the long term the investment does pay off in many cases.

40

True I agree. But the interest rates for such loans are sometimes so crazy resulting into more cost than the education actually was. That is where I think the way how education is funded is just plain unethical.

The end result is today that:

A: I have students who have to work so I cannot teach effectively
B: Students after graduates are crippled with increasing debt(interest) and that for a consumer based industry is not smart.

This is why I like Britain’s approach so much.

The thing is also that educational costs only rise and not lower. There is a lot of politics that also go into this from private banks for loans and policy makers to who is employed at a university. If I would have a chance I would fire everything and everybody on campus that is not part of the staff to clean the houses maintain them and teach. But do we need a nurse on campus? Do we need a grocery store? Do we need a doctor?

But then again the US also has one of the most embarrassing medical services. In Ohio I was forced to buy the school medical plan because legislation mandated it because too many dropped out because of medical bills. In Germany I paid 50$ and had the same medical service as everybody else in the work force. I was sick - I just went to a doctor (no on campus).

Argh I am getting angry. I see talented students being hindered by the silly for-profit and we do not need to reform yet claim we are the best infrastructure.