This thread is rife with bias and anecdote being presented as if it were evidence. A number of times already some posts have stepped uncomfortably close to the threshold of our Forum Rules. That said, discussion has remained predominantly civil and there’s hope that the thread may yet survive.
That said, a few recommendations:
Cite your source: If you’re going to say something about “studies you’ve seen”, you should be able to say specifically what studies you’re referring to… and even better, provide a link. I could conduct a study now and write the results in crayon… sure it’s a study, but such a study from me would have no credibility.
Avoid anecdotes as evidence: Anecdotes can be great for refuting gross generalizations that encompass all members of a particular population (e.g. “I know blah blah counter-example, so what you’re saying is false”). But the actual discussion is generally more nuanced and therefore anecdotes are far less useful.
Try not to attack the premise: The OP isn’t asking why the situation is as it currently stands… isn’t even making a value judgment as to whether it’s good or bad. The question is how one might encourage those statistics to change. Anything outside of that is more than likely off-topic. It’s irrelevant whether you think attempts to change those statistics are necessary or worthwhile; that wasn’t the question. If we can manage to keep the scope of this thread narrow enough, we can avoid potential flamefests.
Not all programming is math: Quite a lot (arguably most) of the work involved in programming has very little to do with math. There’s logic, sure, but a lot of programming can be more easily aligned with language studies. So references to how well or how poorly people do math are less relevant to the discussion.
Disregarding immensity of peer pressure on the behavior of teenagers is folly. Not to mention the less tangible effect of a gender dominated industry’s internal culture on excluding and limiting outsiders in. I believe it ultimately damages progress to rely on half of the potential workforce.
Perhaps this is beyond the scope of this forum, and I should concentrate on just encouraging my nieces in whatever the choose and being a good role model, etc., but the statistics are disheartening.
Did you ask your nieces if programming/3D Art is something they even wanted to do? Neither is a skill you get good at if you don’t really enjoy doing it and are dedicated. So it’s just not for everyone, regardless of their gender.
This!!! 1,000,000% … now if only curriculum designers at “institutes of higher learning” understood that. They usually assume you need the highest levels of calculus in order to become a programmer. Along with every other math course they have to offer ($$$$), none of which provide any context to programming. By the end of it all, the programmers come out knowing only Java, poor coding style, barely anything about binary math and logic, and zero knowledge about what their code is actually doing on the computer… since the computer is a magical black box that does things with calculus in Java.
Yeah, I can surely understand that. In the attempt to generate equality for the one half of humans, I also see that it sometimes goes too far and then disadvanteges the other half. I don’t like that either, it’s just not right. I can understand that males feel frustrated about that, especially when they are affected. I still think it’s necessary to keep trying not to discriminate any group of people, but being only human, we might overshoot the mark at times.
For me, I just try not to use any “us vs them” thinking and try to make things better for all of us, together, regardless of gender/skin color/whatever.
That is a interesting film, thanks for posting it. It gets a little muddled at the end, but that perhaps reflects the contentious nature of the subject.
It would almost suggest that you would see more female programmers in open source, which is more community driven, but that is not the case.
I think the best way to “proactively” increase diversity in the community is to high lite the weaknesses of a none diverse one.
For programming this is slightly more difficult because its totally abstract in regard to gender, race ect ect… the effects that a more diverse community would have are not quantifiable.
The benefits of a diverse community on other areas of Blender are much more apparent, Art is the most obvious example*. I work in Animation and its no secret that more female animators would be beneficial to the art form.
You need to find an example of something that could be done differentially if it were to be done by a more diverse community and demonstrate that as a strength.
I also think that making the wider community “not just programming” a fertile place for everyone to be creative and learn will in the long run improve the chances of a member becoming a developer regardless of gender.
*I am not saying that women should concentrate on art rather than programming, I am saying that there contributions “or lack of” to Art are going to be more obvious.
There are industries that have a leaning one way or the other as far as the gender gap goes. Identifying these ‘leanings’ is only the very first part of understanding what can often be incredibly complicated social forces, with hundreds of years of history informing them. The OP did a good job of simply asking the question to understand more about these specific leanings as far as blender is concerned.
There is no doubt that the computer sciences have a leaning towards being male dominated. I don’t have the experience or understanding of all of the forces involved to make a declaration as to why that is. And I certainly have no basis to judge whether or not that is good or bad, let alone needing of change. There is an even stronger leaning the other way in childcare, an industry dominated by women (~95%). There are many reasons for this, some good, some bad. Nobody is specifically holding men back from this industry, but there are distinct societal forces at play. Does this mean that childcare needs more men? Does this mean we should make efforts to incentivize men in the childcare industry? I don’t know. But I do know that looking at the numbers and making an effort to change them, without a deeper understanding of the forces involved, is a fool’s errand.
I applaud the OP and some of the commenters on this thread for exploring these issues, and I urge everyone to keep their minds open. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and exploring issues. Trying to shut down people asking questions simply because you don’t like where the line of questions may lead is problematic.
@SterlingRoth:
I agree entirely. I think that the scope of the question is honestly larger than any one on this forum is actually capable of answering. I think that the reason this gets brought up is because childcare doesn’t get paid as much as CS or physics. There are more female nurses than doctors, and more male doctors than nurses. Same quandary exists there. Is it something that should change? Maybe. Can YOU change the WHOLE issue of an industry favoring one sex over the other? No.
Just encourage your sons and daughters (nieces as well ) to love science and math, and to do their best. Don’t restrict one or the other in their interests and don’t let others do the same.
I often like to think of social issues as a scale in which one side is lower than the other. You don’t equalize the scale by adding weight to both sides. This is why it seems (to those males more sensitive in that area) as if feminism is attacking or otherwise against men.
As for the point on encouragement, there is a phenomenon in psychology called the Rosenthal Effect. It basically means that the more expectations are placed upon someone, the better they will perform. Now I don’t think anyone will deny that there is and has been a long tradition of sexism towards women in the United States and other countries. Why, it wasn’t until 1920 until women in the United States even had voting rights. So to those who believe that feminism is unnecessary or gender inequality is imaginary, let me pose you this question: because there has never been any movement, no cause, no social change that ever provided balance or stability or equality with regards to the issues that women face today, what makes you so confident, so adamant, so sure in your belief that there is no gender inequality today? Do you think these issues just disappeared of their own accord?
When you have an industry such as ours that is predominantly male and male centric, you encourage more males and fewer females into that industry. Such is the Rosenthal Effect. When less is expected of women, they won’t perform as well. I will confess that I know next to nothing about programming or the associated industry and the people working within it, but if the rest of the world of CG and visual effects and film is anything to go by, it’s likely to be mostly male dominated.
Disclaimer:
Reading over my post now, it seems this has a high likelihood of starting another large argument. I seem to have a propensity for inciting incendiary discussion. Know that it has more to do with my manner of speaking and less to do with any blame, anger or accusation that I may appear to have (I’m really an emotionless robot). I tried to stay on topic, or at the very least introduce topics that are relevant to the discussion of the topic.
There once was a need for feminism, I doubt anyone can argue that. But modern feminism is not about equal rights for women anymore, its for more rights for women than men which can clearly be seen in the western world today. Im all about for equal rights, but feminism these days is the opposite.
Men face just as much inequality as women if not more. But because we are men, we just need man up and deal with it. Cant even go sit in a park alone and read a book near childrens playground because some feminazi might call cops on my ass.
EDIT: There are tons of campaigns encouraging girls, I have yet to see any empowering men. Boys are expected to sit still and shut up most of the day in class instead of actually doing something practical and using their bodies like they were meant to.
Do you think you could give me some examples of ways in which men face more discrimination that women? Your sitting in the park example wasn’t very clear.
I’m also not entirely sure if comparing a gender equality movement to a fascist dictatorship that killed millions is completely fair.
I wasn’t looking for an institutional, top-down solution for anything, I just wanted to know if the statistics asserted in the Wired article held true for the Blender community of programmers and users. I realize that the only way I can help anyone is by presenting the opportunity to explore CG and programming as a valid option, and supporting them whatever their choices are. This wasn’t supposed to be about feminism, but perhaps that was naive of me.
It would be great if more people (women or men) took an interest in developing for things like Blender.
Honestly, my very personal (and probably politically incorrect) opinion is that the focus on diversity (and identity politics in general) in most fields only serves the political interests of those who wish to use it as a tool to conquer and divide. And it seems to me that a lot of people are happy to be “useful idiots” for an agenda they often do not understand or which is disguised as something else.
A video I saw once it showed a public swimming pool and they hired a women and a man to take pictures (independent of each other) of the kids at the pool even though they both did not come with children. Only the man was questioned by staff as to what he was doing there.
Scroll to the second from last paragraph the definition still doesn’t cover women raping men.
One that struck me was the lack of awareness of men in abusive relationships. TBH it wasn’t till a few months ago that is occurred to me that it happens and only because it was a question about on askreddit to people who had been in abusive relationships. I’ve seen adverts, posters and news articles about women in abusive relationships and always portraying the men as abusers but you never hear anything about men in abusive relationships. (In England anyway)
While some of that stuff is not a direct result of feminism, a lot of it is. Internet has all the information you need, go educate yourselves. I`m out.
By the end of it all, the programmers come out knowing only Java, poor coding style, barely anything about binary math and logic, and zero knowledge about what their code is actually doing on the computer… since the computer is a magical black box that does things with calculus in Java.
