Unity3D gone greedy, this is the perfect time to revamp the GE! Crowdfunding!!!

Game Engine Game Engine Support and Discussion
41

Fact is fact and Google is your friend. It’s not a matter of believing.

If you don’t have anything relevant to add to the thread, please abstain from posting.

I don’t live in USSR nor I’m under police investigation to not have the right to label stuff ‘bullshit’ and to have to prove what I’m saying.

This thread is not about languages productivity/performance, you came here talking offtopic things and I need to prove what I’m saying? No, that’s not how it works. You’re accusing me so you have to prove what I’m saying is wrong…

So you’re saying that only if I’d released a ‘significant’ thing or something I’d have the right to express my opinion? So if I were J. Carmack everything I said would be instantly and magically valid? That’s utter bullshit.

You sound like a fine mixture of Hitler and Stalin to me. Two nice gentlemen who once lived upon earth :).

42

Everything I say is based on personal belief (the “we” was referring to the individuals in the community), however, I changed my post slightly to make it more clear.

On to something more relevant:
I think that all of us need to seriously take into account our capabilities, in terms of making a game, before we even consider crowdfunding for the BGE.
Personally, I’ve never longed for any of these features in my own small projects, so I have no reason to support this.

You are actually at the burden of proof here.
Burden of Proof

43

I don’t think Goral wrote that to hurt you or mock you in any kind of way,shape or form but i think he’s only fearing that it might not work or he’s just checking that you know what you are doing and if you are doing it right in order to be successful.
So if you see some people in here starting to doubt your ideas is most likely because they care or they are worried about the results which i cant blame them for it :slight_smile:
Maybe you should back up your ideas with some facts this will reduce the doubt from some users .

Anyway as for the topic its very interesting if you really are devoted to this idea(which i can see from what you wrote so far :)) you could start to create a prototype or sketch on what the engine should look like or work ,
that way the community can add their opinions before sending the final idea to the Blender Foundation team :wink:

44

Am I in a trial? Ever heard about “benefit of assumption” and “presumption of innocence”? In any decent country you don’t have to prove everything you’re saying, even in a court. If have to prove things for a random stranger on the internet, then this is far worse than communist dictatorship.

Can I post a list of Google search links to backup what I’m saying? :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, I wanted to ‘develop’ the idea extensively before deciding anything. I’m still trying to understand how this thread turned into an anarchist riot.

I was expecting lots of pages of constructive debate but it seems that was my biggest dream.

45

You’re not on trial, but you made an assertion and expect people to believe it just because you said so.
You have no credible sources - we don’t even know how credible you are. How can we give you the “benefit of assumption” and “presumption of innocence”, if you are just “a random stranger on the internet”?

I was expecting lots of pages of constructive debate but it seems that was my biggest dream.

Please explain how we can have a constructive debate when most of the people here do not even properly understand the subject?

I know I don’t…

46

What is so horribly broken about the bge that it needs a rewrite?

People say that there is a limit to what you can do before bugs stop you, I have found a few
bugs, and simply worked around them…

Bge really needs only a few key points resolved

Gfx pipeline polycount
libLoad libNew bugs
scene.objects needs to be a branched path search or something else that is not crippled by a large list size.
Bullet physics needs better handles linked to sensors like collision.impulse or ray.hitVertex as well as some repairs to compound object system (center of mass and mass etc)

Sdfgeoff is writing a light manager but-it really should be done at a very low level

LOD system should allow for Level of logic

Bullet needs to run independent of gfx framerate

All in all I have never hit a wall I could not walk around.

47

Simple: I say something, I’m right until someone proves otherwise. That’s how it works. If it’s not possible to prove that, then I’m right.

I found a nice website on the internet, you type keywords on it and you can find pretty much everything, it’s called ‘Google’, give it a try:

https://www.google.com/search?q=c%2B%2B+c%23+productivity

48

Yeah, to tell the truth last time I’ve tested the BGE ‘seriously’ was before the new GUI :P. But it was pretty solid.

What about deploying to mobile platforms, don’t you think that’s important? And are you satisfied with the graphics capabilities?

49

Well , those are issues however we could all band together make a game, sell it and donate the revenue to add support for openGL ES allowing blender itself to run on mobile as well as the bge. I hate Mac so…

Anyway nothing is stopping us from steam and constant revenue to the bge, have you seen wrectified?

50

No. You just have an opinion, and other people may have different opinions. If neither opinion can be proven, concretely, then the relevance of any one opinion is judged by the credibility of its proponent.

I found a nice website on the internet, you type keywords on it and you can find pretty much everything, it’s called ‘Google’, give it a try

I did, and I can’t find definitive proof that one language is definitely more productive than another. There are a lot of opinions, but a lot of them don’t even focus on the language - it’s mostly about the ecosystem, and various libraries:

And that’s not surprising, because there is no objective way to calculate “the general productivity level of a programming language”, that is fully independent from personal preference, the programming environment, and present circumstances.

If you can prove me wrong, great, but if not, your claims of “bullshit” are just that.

You’re not supposed to constantly use scene.objects, on each and every frame.

It’s unwise to complicate the underlying implementation so that you can more efficiently do something that you’re not supposed to be doing in the first place.

51

I don’t ever constantly call scene . Objects however internally I am not sure if this a bottleneck for the game loop itself,

If I had a million objects calling it one time would be very slow, not that I ever would use scene.objects , I would use object[‘objectTypeList’]

Another thing right now I dont like, you can’t get a objects GamObjectKey in the UI, or have a property that is a key be passed as a key, and all the conversion is a little silly compared to adding a new property type GameObjectUUID

52

Violations of DRY and SOLID principles where they would benefit code clarity and reusabilty, on multiple occasions.
Poorly implemented gameloop & converter stage, making it counterproductive to extend.
Poor handling of data - names are used in many places where they should not be.
Clunky Python API interface from C++
Incomplete, inconsistent and one-way scripting API.
Black-box logic brick system, implementing logic-brick specific features (i.e collision information).
The list can go on. If you don’t see problems, you’re either not looking hard enough or we’ve hidden them well enough

53

That may be, but does it really mean the engine is totally unfit to make games? I mean every engine has bugs right? I really like this engine so far and I also really like python, but every time I come on the forums I get discouraged and think about switching to unity. I really don’t want to sink a bunch of time into making a game in an engine that plain doesn’t work. Which is what you are making it sound like. However so far I have made an infinite tiling ground system and it runs smoothly on both my cheap computer and my nice one. Every bug I’ve run into has been my fault as far as I can tell. I really want to make a full RPG in this engine, but the fact that there isn’t a single quality game that hasn’t stopped development because of a low frame rate is terrifying. I honestly might switch to unity today because of this forum…

54

First off, I think it would be safe to warn that we don’t need the community of bge to go sour from hearing everybody different viewpoints ,no matter how they structure their arguments. I’m not trying to be a moderator (it’s not my job), but discussions have gone wrong before, you have been warned.

Second, as far a “feature list” goes, I don’t think bge needs any more features, the only reason why I requested them before was because I didn’t know how to achieve much in bge. BUT the one thing I think bge does need is the api bugs fixed as well as the performance. However, this creates another problem, bge developers have already tried to fix the bge code so others could work on it and some (not all) haven’t got far because a bunch of poor code behind it. I didn’t understand it before but after creating scripts with several different code styles applied, I realized that it can be such a mess to fix that you just want to start over. That being said, am I for a new engine? Well, I would like to see the current bge be fixed, but there’s a good chance that may not happen, so I think it’d be best to start a clean slate or use a game engine that already exists, like BDX, harmony, or Panda3d (which I’m more leaning towards). But doing this presents two concerns from the community; one, it’s not bge; and two, what about the current games being worked on? The simple answers to these are; one, any engine put into blender is a type of blender engine (bge is); and two, you still have the current bge to finish your projects on, so what’s really wrong with that? This is just my view on it based on what I’ve seen.

Third, after I’ve participated :wink: , I don’t really see we still have threads like this. There isn’t anything I haven’t heard or seen before in these types of threads, and like I said they can get really sour really fast, so why exactly don’t we ban them?

55

Two main viewpoints here about the BGE:

  1. The BGE is good enough for indie developer and hobbyists because even if highly advanced features were implemented they still wouldn’t be utilized properly and it’d all be much ado about nothing.

  2. The BGE needs to push the envelope like commercial engines.

…but there isn’t really any point to disccusing this with the current state of affairs.

Interestingly, you could say analgously Blender’s situation is leaning towards #2 as it grows, and that probably influences some of the motivation for pushing the BGE further also.

@BPR
The engine’s not broken but it has just about reached its limits and potential. As you recall, I tried optimizing it before and it would’ve required a bunch of workarounds. The moment you have to start doing workarounds, it’s a slippery slope. Unfortunately, this tends to happen more in open-source development, since it’s not as fun to refactor stuff versus adding new features (although I find refactoring refeshing when you get to delete huge chunks of code :eyebrowlift:).

All in all I have never hit a wall I could not walk around.

There shouldn’t be a wall there in the first place - the engine should be creating bridges, not walls, or possibly portals to other worlds… :stuck_out_tongue:

@Repgahroll
You have valid aspirations, but simply put, the BGE is not a good foundation due to licensing and everything else previously discussed. Not to mention, commercialized open-source gaming is virtually non-existant since the only practical way to generate profit tends to be subscription based. These days, that business model is not so popular anymore - I believe free-to-play is the trend.

However, IMHO, “open-source” engines are the future. By open-source, I mean you can look but you can’t freely redistribute. Game engines require a lot of customization and tuning, and waiting around for the company to fix bugs, etc. doesn’t cut it. I know that’s one reason why some developers left Unity for Unreal etc.

@SolarLune
My only minor criticism with Godot is that it has a scripting layer and its own scripting language, but for simpler purposes that is actually the way to go, since if the developer is using such an engine, they should be creating a game that should not need to jump into C++ for optimization, otherwise they are using the wrong engine.

The fact it has its own editor lessens its need for Blender integration since its editor is built specifically for Godot. And really, a game engine should come with an editor or you run into interop hell. Ideally, the editor is based on the engine, and the engine based on the editor, both working on the same structure. Blender/BGE had the right idea.

So IMHO, it’s the best replacement for the BGE and its primary userbase (not to demotivate others…).

56

Hmm… I’d be totally in if we had a good team and any guarantee it would work. We have neither :(.

C# is more concise, has GC, lots of standard libraries, has much better development tools, much better debugging features, and the list goes on. It’s kinda obvious to me that C# allows for a better productivity. Anyway, I don’t think I’m gonna change your opinion so there’s no alternative for me other than respecting it. :stuck_out_tongue:

Nice contribution. Thanks for opening our eyes :).

Yeah, I’d like a better clarification also, of course every engine has bugs, but what is the current state of BGE?

Yeah, if you scroll back a little you’ll see that we started to talk about the chance of improving Godot in such a way it would kinda come closer to Unity.

Yeah, ban us all :).

Thank you.

Yeah, free-to-play certainly is the new trend for mobile games, I don’t think that’s the case for PCs and consoles (yet) though. Personally, I don’t know anyone who left Unity for Unreal because it’s open-source. I see how that can make a difference, but most people seems to be only interested on the price… and certainly most people don’t want or have the knowledge/resources to touch on the source code.

57

That’s arguable, especially when compared to the latest version of C++.

has GC

Which can help, if you don’t have to actually manage memory in a very precise manner, but if you do, working around GC has the potential to make you less productive.

lots of standard libraries, has much better development tools, much better debugging features, and the list goes on.

  • Those are external to the language.
  • C++ has many high-quality libraries (especially for game development), along with tools and debuggers that are just as good.
58

While the ‘built in’ libraries are ‘external’ to the language, any implementation of c# has them, and they are extremely handy, and not comparable to the c++ std libs in terms of features. In c++ you need a 3rd party lib for more ‘sophisticated’ stuff while in c# there’s a chance they’ll be right there just waiting to be used.

59

One of the reasons why its so easy to get a game up and running in the BGE is that it does not require you to set up a compiler environment and likewise get the correct C++ libraries in place before you can even get started, you can just start coding game logic in the Blender text editor and for all of my projects at least, I never had to install or pay for a separate IDE.

Godot may very well have potential, but first it needs to have a good physics integration from an established engine like Bullet and have good interoperability with Blender (which would be even better if it could read .blend files). The website also needs a bit of work as there’s very little information on what it can do and very little in the way in terms of talking about games being made with it.

60

Godot is still in beta, so it does make sense that some things are missing about it like the website being a bit bare. I think it’s supposed to be worked on along with the documentation before the engine launches at 1.0. If I may4 be an idiot, why does it need an established physics engine, though?

I think there was some work on using Assimp to provide direct loading of blend files, but I don’t think any progress has been made on that in a little while.