Poles and Loops

Hi everybody ! I’m a complete beginner at 3D modeling but after reading this long thread I couldn’t resist posting a link to one of Jean-Pierre Petit’s comic book. This guy is a well known French scientist who published a while back a series of comics on a lot of different subject. One of them, which I really liked, was about topology. The mathematical approach is obviously quite different from the more practical discussion here but I’m sure there are some interesting overlaps. I was quite amazed at the resemblance of some of the diagrams in any case…

Moreover Jean-Pierre Petit has decided to distribute his comics freely over the net and have them translated in as many languages as possible. Sounds very “on topic” on a blender forum…

So, in case you have a bit of free time and a curious mind :

pdf for the French version :
http://www.savoir-sans-frontieres.com/download/fre/topologicon.htm

The English is at :
http://www.savoir-sans-frontieres.com/download/eng/topologicon.htm

Excellent excellent excellent stuff! I remember when I was 15 I read on those subjects, but it taxed my power of imagination. It is a nice overview and condensed explanation of this difficult subject. But about time-space, the subject could have expanded a little more, even maybe going into string theory.

Yes well, it’s true that this book is at least 20 years old and theories have evolved since then (moreover I think Petit is not quite convinced by the string theory). Still, would be cool to model a Boy surface in blender…

The black hole one is also a good read about surface curvature and how it’s linked to mesh singularities (that’s actually more the one I was thinking about).

maybe it is possible in this?:
http://www.topmod3d.org

This thread is really fantastic. I’ve been tinkering in 3d as a casual hobbyist for about 10 years, and this is the best, most thoroughly explained description of modeling for subsurf that I’ve ever read. Thank you for making explicit the motivations behind much of what people consider best-practices. Now I just need to find the time to go forth and model!

Cheers!

A quickie.

This is just an extension of the way of how poles are moved around. In this their is a favorable maneuver to nice up the topology in cases where a N-pole is trapped between two E-poles.

Say you want to place a loop around these:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6505/poleene1hn2.png

Which yields this:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6195/poleene2pk6.png

Basically there is nothing really wrong with this, but it can be done better by eliminating the N pole:

So, for this, merge the 3 verts of the N pole and then merge the 2 resulting tris into a quad.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5638/poleene3xu9.png

Then

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1394/poleene4xo7.png

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6906/poleene5mz0.png

This looks much nicer, cleaner and more organic.

I brought this forward, because when preparing the explanation on how to model the nose, I was making some moves that isn’t clear on the why, and this will make it a little easier to follow the next posts.

Finaly! Here it comes. And better still, I’ll do the 4 minute version that involves topology so one can see how the form relates to the topology. I don’t recommend for anyone to model a nose this way because although the topology might seem correct, it could be a little overkill to incorporate it in you model. It is purely to make my point about how a good topology relates to a desired form.

First begin with a subdivided plane, and to make life easier, delete half of it and mirror modifier (with do clipping enabled).

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1973/quicknose1ki9.png

I placed an extra loop in the middle there (two because of the mirror) to avoid 6-poles when I start modeling the nostrils. Sometime you just need to see a few steps ahead to avoid those kind of pitfalls as much as possible.

Now, select a face, extrude it and delete that face to make a hole.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3665/quicknose2op4.png

And now we are going to apply the first topological region. It shall be applied at the columella-labial angle - or junction -. Why? As the name implies, I want to keep it seperate from the surrounding topologies, and it will give the form better definition.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9554/quicknose3sl8.png

I added extra cuts on the holes. Like I said before, you have to plan ahead sometimes. In this case you would have ended with 6-ples later on (which should be easy to to change into E-poles) and the mesh would have been too tight,

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6370/quicknose4xy5.png

Now add a C-loop around the 2 holes and do E+N+E=E

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2809/quicknose5sd3.png

Now cut out the topology of the nostrils and do a E+N+E=E

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6338/quicknose1rf3.gif

Besides the nostril topology I cut the nasal-labia fold too.

I’ll cut an extra loop around the nose to form the outer boundary for the mouth-nose loop that borders the eye loop later on. I’ll cut an edge loop (the face loop is already present) that runs through the tip of the nose, effectively isolating the holes region and the help define the form better. I’ll be talking later about that when the subject of key loops comes up.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6464/quicknose6js2.png

It still does look like a bunch of jumbled up topology, but just bear with me. It already landed on its feet. Now all there is to do is to activate the proportional editing tool and pull the nose tip out, tweak the nostrils and junction and it is done:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8573/quicknose2xn9.gif

The result after some tweaking:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9736/quicknose7zk5.png

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the topology of the nose is almost the same as the following topology:

http://www.arabblend.com/temp/000/diffAng.jpg

In the most excellent book: Stop Starring, there is a section where a head is modeled poly by poly style. This is the head:
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7497/stop1xj7.png

This handsome head has this nose modeled like this:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/313/stop2az6.png

which has this SIMPLE topology:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7181/stop3pq2.png

It kinda look familiar doesn’t it? So this means that your topology doesn’t have to be too complicated. I think The author choose for this simple setup (almost no topological regions) because in Stop Starring, it is all about the ‘posing’ of the face. So by not having those regions, pulling on the mesh at one place would pull the shape of this too for example, which is desirable for obvious reasons. The disadvantage is that because there is no topological regions in place, it is easier to lose the overall consistent shape whereas with more topological regions, the shape will be kept better.

And this will bring us to the next topic which is shape. I think I have provided enough examples and explanation with the flat grid/ canvas to clearly convey the understanding on how the rewiring happens on a flat canvas and why it should be like that. Shape and topology are closely related. In the next pose I’ll be exploring what the influence of the shape of the model has on the topology and how we could use topology to ‘mold’ the shape better.

Before I go on I wanted to thank you guys for your encouraging words and complements. I’m happy to see that the thread is of some use to you. I think that I have enough materials and ideas to write a book. So this thread can grow to be huge. If it comes to that, I would call upon some of you who offered to put this in a pdf, wiki and html. It would be cool to have a good quality gpl’ed book of a topic that puzzles so many.

Of course please serve me with you critique, comments and suggestions any time.

Blend on :yes:

@Toontje
Thanks for posting all the info in this thread. I have a question about spiral loops though (from post 7 of this thread). I don’t really understand why you would use them. How are they helping the model look more organic? The idea of edgeloops, as i understand it, is to mimic muscle flow… but there’s no muscles that travel in spirals!

I’d love it if you could clarify when you would use spirals and what their benefit is. Thanks!
~Mechis

Yeah, it’s been bothering me a little too. It’s really SomeArtist idea to do it like that. And besides, it take more effort to make a spiral. A couple of reasons I see to use spirals is because it blends better, or your modeling something that is a spiral (like a horn, nautilus shell. Besides someartist’s example, I’ve seen another wireframe that also has spirals for it s eye socket topo. It looks good, but apart from that, I have to experiment to see what the real benefits are.

Thanks toontje… I’ve seen it in various galleries every once in a while, but never really knew why people would do it for head models. I guess it’s just another option to be aware of…
~Mechis

toontje:
No words. As a professional, and as a teacher, as a person :wink: “Thank you” will never be enough. Really good research/material.

Oh snap! I cannot believe that we went over all this without spilling some words about how to bend and existing loop. We know that moving poles around can change flow. That is one way to tweak your topology. But there is on last hurdle to overcome and it isn’t pretty. I just cannot find some elegant way to solve this. It will be messy, but it is doable.

Thinking about it, made me reconsider my position on N-gons. I always said that N-gon modeling is not the way to go. I was wrong in one point of view. My point of view was to avoid N-gons when you are doing organic modeling. Why? Because N-gons disrupts flows, a many sided polygon controls to great an area (like 6-poles). N-gons are better suited for architectural and mechanical modeling.

How more wrong could I be? I based my opinion on what I’ve seen being modeled with N-gons. 5 sided or even 6 sided polygon here and there. Seeing those timelapse tutorials, I see the artist have to remember the placing of the loops and place them ‘manualy’ (in that at a N-gon a loop could travel a arbitrary way). That much flexibility could be to confusing for many modelers. Thus that was my wrong point of view.

What got me thinking was a remark by Teeth or one of the other devs who said that it is about the added tools when N-gons comes to Blender. Indeed! N-gons is not a goal! It’s not the intention to go lazy and let unprocessed N-gons all over your organic model! Your model should still be (as much as possible) quads only.

So why N-gons? Because of the added tools you’ll get that just isn’t available in normal mode. One such tool is the Connect tool in Wings3d. This tool makes bending an existing loop a breeze.

So what is the problem then?
This is my Challenge to you then:
Make one (or 2) C-loop out of this existing loop:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6941/bendloopwz5.png

I may be shooting on my foot here, but realy I don’t have a elegant solution for this. I’ll be checking on of SomeArtist’s timelapse video first where he does something similar.

HOW THE HELL DID I MISS THIS THREAD???1 Very nice, in depth tutorials, i am definitly gonna try this, i’ve been wondering FOREVER about how to do this, havent gotten around to it though… Thank you toonje!!! Your a fricken genius!

Toontje - Thank you so much for this thread. I have a long experience with another 3D application based on splines and patches (those who wonder, I mean Animation:Master. See my web site at http://www.ypoart.com) and although modeling in sub-D is somehow similar to modeling with splines, there are enough differences to make some situations puzzling. Your thread is an immense help. And I also want to offer my help converting your thread in pdf if you ever consider that.
One note, I found there already are some missing images. I can make a list of them if you need.

O? Are there images missing? I know that image shack has the bad habit to lose images from time to time. But because this thread is so image intensive, it could be that some images just weren’t loaded. Maybe reload the page again?

Thank you for your offer, and maybe there are some common ground ore useful additions from the way you use to model. :slight_smile:

I’ve having some trouble with AVI-GIF converter. It’s very unstable… or maybe its because isn’t a full moon yet?

I alrady tried reloading the pages several times.I even tried to force display the missing images to no avail. Here is the list of missing images:

in post #16:
img135.imageshack.us/img135/90/wrongflownp7.png

in post #33:
www2.planet.ee/files/2007-05-12/34_mindset.png
www2.planet.ee/files/2007-05-12/33-rewire-1.gif
www2.planet.ee/files/2007-05-23/35_so_far.png

in post #35 image from SomeArtist

in post #41:
www2.planet.ee/files/2007-06-13/36_wrong_edge_loop.png
www2.planet.ee/files/2007-06-13/37_after_x_loop2.png

in post #50:
img521.imageshack.us/img521/204/3strategiesnosejobjp0.png

Well that is just peachy!! Those are a lot of the old pics! Oh man! That is what you get for trusting unknown image services like planet ee. I really don’t know if I have any of those images anymore. I often work on different PC’s and I decommissioned one. I have to put it back together then. I will look around for those missing pics and else I have to back track to see what I did there before. I hope that there is some around that saved those pics :wink:

Toontje

It’s good to see this thread active again… I just got into a job and i rarely get time to use blender(I use it only on Saturdays and Sundays)…And about the pdf … I think its better to make a video tutorial rather than a pdf …mainly because of the animated gifs which are there in your posts … another way would be making it a flash presentation …And I think I can help with that … the tutorial needs to be made in to some format…

  1. Something’s need to fixed like, what method of modeling need to be used? Like things suggested by someartist in the sub-div forum (box modeling or messy models(cleaning models that’s created using poly by poly :slight_smile: )
  2. What type of tutorial? , should it be something general information, or something practical
    I personally like a tutorial starting from a simple drawing of a stylized charactor, so that there is plenty of room for topology, poles, …… and for this I think a video tutorial is better.
    or something that generalize basic pole movement ,pole creation ,… and this can be done a flash presentation
    After reading about your discussion about wings3d ,i am putting some effort to learn that. After all it’s also free!!! I had the same feeling about ngons …ngons can be used in the process of modeling ,but need not be present in the end result…
    Even though there are softwares like zbrush( where you can make something in minutes). I am still addicted to blender…( blender is an open source product!!!) and I like to do things in the right way(optimised)and of course zbrush can be a part of the workflow…

Fazil Abdul Lathif

OK, I shall look if I can find the images I left, otherwise I have to backtrack to reproduce those images again. This time will save all the surviving images for later.

OK, about bending existing loops. Like I said, it is not elegant, but the best way is to rotate an edge. Yes, you’ll get two loops. The offending loop should be deleted by select all the edges in it and collapse it (Mesh menu–> edges–> collapse).

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9154/bendloopfa0.gif