Let's pick on Andrew's GUI proposal

@doublebishop a-g all my thoughts and what led me to believe this was not really a serious concept an addendum to that

1.) a big omission to me was not demonstrating how splitting and joining of windows now works. There is already a problem with headers been truncated when you split windows. How will a ribbon hold up.

2.) Material editing was glossed over in that video, a material with just a bump and a spec map get out of here jack. I am supposed to take that seriously

3.) I saw no demonstration of how sculpting works, animation, texture painting, uv mapping etc Lots of functionality is left out to show a stream lined UI. So if you give this as a proposal to a developer are the supposed to fill in the blanks as the go along. A serious proposal needs to have more depth to it.

4.) not sold on the right click menu at all, the example given was to show two edge loops been bridged but what if you selected a few verts, edges or faces do you know how many operators you can use, lots of them, do all those options now get listed into one giant menu.

5.) where did all the tools go? are the all on the magical right click menu, the tool bar that was shown is a joke Blender has way more tools than that which is way the interface always ends up cluttered.

I could go on but why bother

@Indy_logic: You seem confused. None of the posts on this forum will have any effect whatsoever. The ‘proposal’ is so woefully incomplete it’s just a bit of concept art - so my crystal ball says it won’t be taken seriously regardless of any merits it may or may not have.

The users on this forum never really stood a chance of affecting change.

If you want to actually change something, you’ll have to do it the old FOSS way - become a developer and start typing.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll go find some other 3d forum for a couple of weeks, Mr. Price has turned this one to crap and I’m sick of it.

  1. The materials would be customized as they are currently, with nodes. He pointed out a large and obvious button at the left called ‘custom’ which opens the node editor.

  2. This is a proposal for UI ideas and principles. I don’t think the intent of the video is to point out the minutia of his opinions on designing every single room. The take away is the logic of organizing things with minimal scrolling, visual feedback, condensing the most common features and hiding the less common ones, and he used his free time to come up with a nice presentation of those ideas.

  3. Whether you’re sold on the right click menu or not it’s a pretty intrinsic part of standard software design and what users expect. It also puts relevant tools right where the user’s mouse is.

  4. Why not? Maya has basically every tool as an icon in a tool bar (a bar at the top infact). Using icons has already made the toolbar much thinner, I’d imagine in an actual implementation of these ideas you could have two columns of icons and still be half the current tool panel width. Context sensitive right clicking isn’t too far fetched. Blender already sorts operations based on verts, edges, faces and many operations are variations of the same thing.

Yeah the great Solidworks UI with the big ribbon toolbar on top.

It actually works incredible well - considering that Solidworks is a software that is very limited in toolsets made for mechanical engineers and heavily uses a parametric feature design tree.

If you look at Alias or Rhino you will quickly see why their interface is just different and is not using this simplistic top ribbon menu bar.

I am actually curious about how Maya or Max users would react if Autodesk would force such a system onto them …

yeh but what does this button actually do? does it split the pane? does it change the entire window to the node editor? how do i tweak values in the node editor whilst looking at the viewport?

all i am doing is raising questions as to how stuff works…

I think Andrew either ran out of steam or realized that his proposal is too limited to really include effective material editors and thus did not elaborate on it. Basically what he forced into the toolbar is an ubershader in a horizontal format.

A context or radial menu like in Maya or Modo would be such a help to clean up with the UI clutter.
Blender toolbar is already interesting because it refreshes the buttons based on the 3D view port mode …

Well i actually liked it! I’m not a hardcore Blender user but I’m working on it. I’ve used 3ds MAX since the beginning as well as a myriad of other programs so i have enough experience in 3d to chime in…and i really want Blender to be easier to use!

-The right click issue just makes sense to me…i am biased though because of 3ds MAX and all the other programs. And there has to be some type of quad menu or something that is context sensitive and customizable.
-I like the idea of tabs…just not at the top. I mean…look up to the top of your monitor ten times and then to the left or right ten times. Horizontal is more comfortable for me.
-As far as primitives go…you shouldn’t have to go to one spot to create something…then another spot to edit the settings. In this respect there are a lot of things in Blender that are kind of all over the place when it would make more sense for them to be condensed and moved for easier use. This is why a lot of people like the modifier stack inside of 3ds MAX. There is so much of the UI that could be moved to a properties dialogue box that could be accessed through a right click menu. I think just moving some stuff around would help tremendously.

I’m not going to pour on about this stuff because as its been said already…the good and the bad. But i think that everyone has to be honest in admitting something has to be done. I don;t think its a wholesale change but definitely some cleaning up.

When you consider the fact of Andrew saying it’s just a concept and the fact that the devs. tend to not blindly start on changes on impulse. I would indeed say that considering the feedback, the ribbon idea at least may very well not go into Blender in its present state.

Besides that, Ack-Err’s GSoC UI work also includes a top bar, but screens gives the feeling of it being nicely out the way when you don’t need and he doesn’t make attempts to replace the property panels with it (only putting functionality one might expect from a top bar).

In fact, last I looked at his page, the new toolbar design does resemble the ribbon in some ways, only it’s vertical and utilizes existing UI space, and the focus on customization also removes the concern of trying to make one interface that would please everyone (because people can proceed to add tools they want and remove tools they don’t want).

You can download the new ui Andrew’s. I would like to try

+1

No I don’t think he uses 3DS. Or Maya.


Exactly! He certainly wants to get back into making tutorials, but he has a problem. He needs one-handed clickable menu, because he’s a fan of huge handheld microphones.
:wink:

I just want to know how the different render/engine will work this propose UI, BI, Cycles and BGE.


On a side note, here’s a screenshot of 3dsmax 2011 taken from my office pc. For a new user, it is quite confusing as well in term of layout. If someone can screen grab their maya UI, it will be great.

The more I think about it, I start to believe Blender main issue is really with the documentation/wiki. A lot of things are still in 2.4 but not available in 2.5

Well theres no guarantee that the BGE will be in future versions of Blender, or at least as a separate mode within blender. Ton has mentioned possibly merging the BGE type of functionality into Blender as a whole, so it exist more as a simulation or prototype mode rather than a game engine.

On a side note, here’s a screenshot of 3dsmax 2011 taken from my office pc. For a new user, it is quite confusing as well in term of layout. If someone can screen grab their maya UI, it will be great.

The more I think about it, I start to believe Blender main issue is really with the documentation/wiki. A lot of things are still in 2.4 but not available in 2.5

For a new user to 3d, its not that confusing at all. Quad view, basic timeline, usual modifier and property panels to the right, timeline controls to the lower right, info bar at bottom, basic menu bar on top and some pretty self explanatory icons.

Compare this to Blender…which slightly mimics this but not really when looked upon. You have nearly every element existing as its own window with its own menu bar with its own icon bar, the windows are placement sensitive, not everything is consolidated into key areas but scattered throughout the interface. Each window has its own set of hotkeys, everything is hidden in menus that are not at all in the same general location, the operator properties is in the lower left easy missed if the side panel is hidden, the properties box to the right is scattered with various toggles, switches and both normalized and non normalized value boxes. The controls themselves are completely foreign to anyone that has used a computer program much less a 3d program, and nearly every user when first starting Blender makes a mess of the window layout because they dont yet understand how it works, which easily leads to anxiety.

I think a great UI example is Mudbox. Myself, and others I know, dont even have to study or look up how to use it, its just intuitive right out of the box. When I first opened it, I was painting textures on a 3d mesh within a few minutes all just by figuring it out on my own and it worked flawlessly. Even exporting the texture maps created. This is possible because it hits on the most common interface standards and intuitive layout with tabs, layers, and icons.

take a look at any 3d software and show me one that isn’t complex and crowded. I’m not sure anyone really knows what they want from the UI. I hear a lot that ppl seem to think that blender isn’t being used widely because it isn’t easy enough to use with only a mouse. Blender is not being used more widely because it doesn’t make any corporations rich. No matter what changes are made to Blender it will never be a widely used 3d software. Why would a kid who can go to college and have an instructor hold their hand and walk them through step by step the most widely used softwares; why would that kid choose to instead learn blender on his own?

Blender is the road less traveled. It ultimately leads to the same place as the one most traveled. Thing about roads less traveled is there is no toll but sometimes you have to stop and ask directions to make sure you’re still headed in the right direction. there are no starbucks or McDonalds on this road either.

You mean like Silo? Mudbox? Sketchup? I would even argue to some extent Maya and XSI. The fact is there are streamlined and minimalistic interfaces in the 3d world, many of them are very good in fact.

But its not about whats more complex or crowded, but rather which one is more intuitive and based around maximum usability. Stream lining is abut removing what is unnecessary at that point and time and working for the user, not against them. Its about reducing the number of arbitrary steps.

3D should be easy to get into and hard to master, not the other way around.

I’m not sure anyone really knows what they want from the UI. I hear a lot that ppl seem to think that blender isn’t being used widely because it isn’t easy enough to use with only a mouse.

Actually there are quite a few of us who know exactly what we want from a UI, and many have and continue to use a large assortment of tools, including the dreaded “commercial applications”.

What I hear more of is usually people touting some confirmation bias in which to proclaim blender is fine and that everyone else is just “cray cray” (crazy).

Blender is not being used more widely because it doesn’t make any corporations rich. No matter what changes are made to Blender it will never be a widely used 3d software.

That’s a silly thing to say. Blender not used because it doesnt make Corporations rich? Thats not a very smart proclamation to make. Blender isnt used as much as it could and should by established and or known artist and studios because of Blender’s state and the state of the industry, not because it doesnt make “corporations rich”. Thats not even a correct way to look at it nor is it that simple or black and white.

When you are an artist who makes their living from their art, you will often pick the tool that gets you paid more and works best with your pipeline. Its that simple. Blender is used for this to some degree but its not as widely adopted mostly due to it not maturing enough yet, both in interface and in polish/feature set. Dont forget, the 3d market is oversatured with 3d applications… This means its harder, not easier.

Why would a kid who can go to college and have an instructor hold their hand and walk them through step by step the most widely used softwares; why would that kid choose to instead learn blender on his own?

Because that kid is going to have a lot of debt to pay off in the form of student loans and adding a collection of software applications to their pipeline which will cost them over $3000 is often not an option. With student versions they can try to come up with a demo reel for employment, but since the market is over saturated, there is more competition, so that student will work with software they can afford to sell their work online, work as freelance or work as a hobbyist on projects that can eventually lead to employment. This is why Blender fits in perfectly, the problem is that its not industry standard in its philosophy.

It might sound crazy to you, but students with an interest in 3d often do learn on their own on their own time. In fact, thats kind of why video tutorials sell so well.

Blender is the road less traveled. It ultimately leads to the same place as the one most traveled. Thing about roads less traveled is there is no toll but sometimes you have to stop and ask directions to make sure you’re still headed in the right direction. there are no starbucks or McDonalds on this road either.

To be honest thats just sentimental bullcrap. It means nothing, its just sentiment and semantics, something to sound romantic and noble but ultimately empty of anything objective or meaningful.
What it tells me is that you have a confirmation bias and nothing objective to base it on.

Good tools are user centric, they focus and help the user achieve their goals in the best way possible, and a large part of that is usability and intuitive design. Intuitive design cannot exist with out familiarity.

On that note, I think nearly everyone here wants whats best for blender and wants to see it grow and succeed, based on the context that success is wide spread professional adoption. It doesnt hurt to question what might be perceived as improvement, but if done it must be based more on the objective than the subjective.

I think the big issue here is that the proposal suggests completely radical and puzzling changes even if there are good ideas in it here and there. Andrew did preface it with “this is not one of those lets throw everything out type of proposals” but it’s exactly what he ended up making. UI is a touchy subject because it’s a lot like somebody coming into your house, rearranging all the furniture and putting sad clown paintings on the wall because it’s “better”. But to be constructive:

Pros:

  • The “sidebar” with a layer stack, history etc., that stuff should be in the Nkey panel.
  • Material presets
  • Automatic bump/specularity map from a greyscale of the main image
  • Clicking on buttons in the left toolbar would not do them immediately because the cursor is too far away to be useful.

Cons:

  • Icons are too big making actual button real-estate smaller
  • The MSWord-style “Ribbon” makes it even harder to add new buttons and sliders (2.4 problem)
  • The proposal basically forces a properties window on the user no matter what they’re doing.
  • Program settings, keymap editor, all these things are gone and there is nowhere to put them
  • Makes it simple for “new users” while making life hard for everyone else because they have to dig through all the “make custom” buttons to get to what they want. A lot of jumping through hoops to set a non-preset material and tweak a parameter like the roughness of a Diffuse BSDF.
  • Breaks all existing UI scripts and add-ons. All the UI can currently be rearranged through Python, but in the proposal you have a lot of “reserved areas” in the ribbon. That would make adding (for example) a new modelling tool or an external renderer UI (Lux, Yaf) somewhat problematic.

I think Andrew has some good points, especially with the layers thing and some sort of material presets panel. Really, I could care less if you changed everything from scratch or left it like it is – I’ll still use it; I’m not switching to Maya, Modo, 3DSMax, c4d, etc. any time soon.

As for the CG Society folks calling Blender users fanboys and generally criticizing the Blender community – they can all go drink their own bath water and turn their noses up at the “little people” all they want. I don’t give a rats rear-end what they think. Blender works for me and I have very few issues with it. To them I say keep giving your money to Autodesk and be happy with whatever changes to their software they feel you deserve.

Blender is not being used more widely because it doesn’t make any corporations rich. No matter what changes are made to Blender it will never be a widely used 3d software.

That’s a silly thing to say. Blender not used because it doesnt make Corporations rich? Thats not a very smart proclamation to make. Blender isnt used as much as it could and should by established and or known artist and studios because of Blender’s state and the state of the industry, not because it doesnt make “corporations rich”. Thats not even a correct way to look at it nor is it that simple or black and white.

I think the argument here that is being dismissed is absolutely valid, just not clearly stated. (and of course the original poster may disagree that it needs to be).
Here goes: selling multi licenses to big studios is good business. Giving schools your software to use in classrooms is good business, because when those students graduate they NEED to buy the full license - or start over again learning another program just when they’re trying to find a job. The software publishers are playing the odds correctly - most graduating students buy the software they used in school. Maybe they even get a discount the first time around to seal their dependence on that suite. Then they go to work for a company that uses that software, because they won’t be working for the other company that uses the other software.

Also good business is spending large amounts of money on advertising. Trade magazine glossy ads are there for a reason - they work. You don’t really think they’re spending that much money to compete with Blender, do you? They’re competing with each other. Sponsoring websites that showcase work done with their software is cheap in comparison.

Saying that changing the Blender UI to match the look or functionality of any of those packages will make Blender competitive is not realistic. The competition is not in the studio but in the advertising media. My homemade rootbeer* is never going to be competitive with Coke and Pepsi, not because it’s defective, but because I can’t afford to compete in the advertising arena.

It’s not reasonable to say that the rest of the world is susceptible to advertising, but CG professionals are completely immune, starting as soon as they enter the academy of art. All that advertising flung at them just has no effect, they only consider software based on its merits. They have special powers of resistance. Now THAT’S being sentimental and romantic.

The truth is that advertising works. Branding works. A double-page glossy spread in your CG magazine of choice showing you what you could be creating if you just buy this software … works. A still from a movie that says, made with XXware … works. Even Photoshop spends massive amounts of revenue on advertising, and they are considered to have a lock on their market… And Blender as FOSS can’t do any of that. BF’s entire year’s budget doesn’t come close to what the big houses spend in an hour or two at the trade conferences. It’s worth it to them. It would be a waste of money for Blender to even try to sit down at that high stakes game.

So what are you left with? No gimmicks delivery of something that doesn’t depend on any flash or glamour to make you use it. This can’t help but be the Blender philosophy, and it attracts users who believe in it. And if you don’t think that open source is a philosophy, or that said philosophy can be the driving force behind what one does and what one supports, then allow me to gently inform you otherwise.

As John Belushi said: No Coke … and no Pepsi.

*Disclosures: JB did not actually say it in quite that way, but the message of the famous skit is exactly what my post is about; and I don’t actually make rootbeer at home.

  • The MSWord-style “Ribbon” makes it even harder to add new buttons and sliders (2.4 problem)

Not at all. 2.4 had space problems because all buttons had to be fit into small grouped rectangles.
In Andrews proposal, the rectangles are replaced by a space which has only a few buttons, and has a button “Show more” which would extend the options down, and there is no limit on how much you can fit there.

The ribbon’s rectangles are much smaller and more limited than the areas in 2.4 since they can only hold 2-3 sliders and maybe an icon. Anything in “Show More” will have to be a lot bigger. If we take the ObData section as an example, you have at maximum 11 areas (Transform, Delta Transform, Transform Locks, Relations, Groups, Display, Duplication, Relations Extras, Motion Paths. Custom Properties and Ray Visibility) with each having at least 3-4 buttons, not to mention that some of them like Custom Properties and Groups can grow substantially if they have too many items in their lists. And thats only for obData, sections like Particles can reach 15 which should aready go past the horizontal limit of an average 1080p screen. So in the end what we’ve done is replace all that “nasty vertical scrolling” with some “even nastier horizontal scrolling”… Not only that, but all the stuff in the Nkey and Tkey panel will have to go somewhere too since they’re gone now.

I’d hate to be the guy who’s job it is to rearrange all the current functions just to fit in that tiny ribbon, deciding what is more worthy to be shown on the first level and what should be buried under a stack of “Show Mores”