Is it even possible to have a magical 'finish my app' button; DARPA says yes

Supposing Einstein’s principle that matter is neither created nor destroyed is true then it would seem rather unlikely that one could remove a grain of sand from the universe, nonetheless it’s not exactly a proven fact either. There’s always the possibility that one could, say, not remove the grain of sand from existence, but instead somehow shuttle it outside of the universe which, again, given conventional understanding, which is certainly subject to being incorrect, seems rather unlikely. I suggest that in order to move something outside of this universe it would take the entire amount of energy contained within the universe plus one in order to do so because you’d have the combined force of gravity from the entire universe pulling that grain of sand back in.

Hypothetically say it was possible to destroy the matter that makes up this grain of sand, even still this grain would not have been removed from existence for it would still be here in spirit so to speak. Which is to say that while the grain existed it had an effect on its surroundings, an everlasting effect that would continue to propagate throughout the universe effecting one thing or another throughout all time.

As such the point as to whether something has an effect sans human existence is moot, it is impossible to eliminate the existence of humanity. We do exist now and therefore will always exist.

As for Buddha, I can only surmise that the painful illusion of separation he referred to was in reference to the separation of existence that most people seem to feel. There is not nature and humans, there is only nature. There are not humans inside the universe, there is only the universe.

While I do it to keep my ramblings understandable from a conventional sense, it’s kinda like saying I have a brain when actually I am my brain.

Like as if I were to say I live in the universe when actually I am the universe. Hello, I am the universe speaking to myself.

P.S. Even if you could shuttle a grain of sand out of the universe you still couldn’t because said grain of sand is part of the universe. Where ever there is something there is the universe, where ever the grain of sand is so too is there the universe.

All is Chaos, disguised as order

The deeper you delve the deeper the mystery,

Nothing simply is,

it is coming to be and leaving a piece at a time,
and you can’t pin what is what or who is who, without collapsing the unseen chaos.

Nothing is gained or lost simply changed… except that all moves in and about many other planes of existence.

so nothing is… it is coming to be, and leaving.

@BPR: I’m not sure, but I’m thinking you’re referring to inflation/multiverse theory?

Interesting as I just read an article on the subject under which one of the originators of inflation theory has recently turned against the theory in favor of the cyclic universe theory.

I’ll link it so you can read the article yourself, but from what I gather based on his opinion inflation/multi-verse and string theories generally introduce more problems without really any answers at all. Apparently, as of this moment, the cyclic universe theory is the only model producing results that match observation.

The cyclic universe theory surmises that the big bang we all know and love is actually just one in a string of infinite big bangs, or bounces, in which all matter cycles through periods of expansion and contraction that eventually result in a collision of all matter resulting in a massive explosion, a big bang, that produces another expansion cycle.

In all honesty pretty much everything else in the universe appears to be cyclical so why not the entire universe too? From the cycling ice ages, themselves divided into glacial/interglacial cycles, to the cycling of the suns active and inactive periods.

Physicist Paul Steinhardt Slams Inflation, Cosmic Theory He Helped Conceive

P.S. Speaking of ice ages, you know I was doing some reading the other day when I was researching climate change. Did you know that the earth is actually in an ice age right now? The Quaternary ice age is believed to be the fifth ice age earth has experienced. Ice ages are divided into alternating periods of deep cold, called glacial periods, and periods of relative warmth, called inter-glacial periods. Our entire civilization has existed inside the fifth inter-glacial period of the Quaternary ice age.

The long term average length of an inter-glacial period is roughly 11,500 years, however the short term average for this particular ice age is much longer. The first three inter-glacial periods of this ice age lasted between 50 and 55 thousand years while the fourth, the previous one, lasted just 5,000 years. This current inter-glacial period has lasted about 14,000 years and could, conceivably, end at any given moment plunging the world into the next deep cold glacial period. Although I’m sure the transition from inter-glacial to glacial isn’t something that happens over night :slight_smile:

true that and nice concepts!

…nonetheless it seems to be impossible to speak about effects if there is no existence.

…nice to read, you tell it!

…funny how simple this is, thumbs up!

…interesting verse. all you can put into words is just a pointing to what is putting into words. so could you however reach what you are with any doing?

…the dog chasing his tail is also a nice symbol for the paradox of experience and all concepts of how the world someone could throw up, its unlikely these concepts can absolutely determine this who creates them. seems absolutely all you can have is a relative pointing to it.

otherwise can you be sure what happens overnight, in deep sleep, generally? the facts are interesting and the transition of the gulf stream to the north also points in that direction but what can we prepare of? you never know.

@Jester Elly: Deep sleep is interesting, dreaming in particular I think. Generally in a dream I feel as though I’m more of an observer, which is to say I don’t really seem to have any control over the environment, events, or even my own actions in a dream.

It’s not easy to explain I suppose, but I can assume you’ve had a few dreams of your own so you probably know what it feels like. Sure, in the dream, it feels as though you’re making decisions, but when you wake up and realize that most if not all of those decisions don’t really correspond to decisions you’d be likely to make should you have been presented with the same situation while awake.

In a dream, you see, it is only an illusion that you have any control over where you go, what you do, with whom you speak and what you say. Sure there are those ‘lucid’ dreamers who believe they can control their dreams, but I surmise this too is only an illusion, meaning they are not controlling their dreams, but merely dreaming that they can control their dreams.

Of course, though, while dreaming even the strangest of dreams feels perfectly real and absolutely normal, who’s to say that things are not much, if any, different whilst we are awake? In so much that reality is less of a video game and more of a movie. So you just sit back and enjoy the ride.

P.S. For instance I remember a while ago I had a dream where I was flying a space ship and crash landing on some alien planet after my space craft brushed up against a space station, which later crashed into the planet too, apparently due to the damage caused by my space craft crashing into it. At any rate, during the dream it never once occured to me to think “Uhhh why am I flying a space ship” or “this is odd, I can breathe just fine on this alien planet god knows how many lightyears from earth.” At no point during the dream did I question why I was was flying a space ship instead of typing on a computer in my bedroom.

And, of course, for whatever reason I apparently knew how to fly a space ship even though it’s not something, obvioulsy, I’ve ever done or even thought about doing. Although one could say perhaps I wasn’t the greatest pilot having crashed into a space station and then later onto an alien planet along with said space station.

At the same time they do say any landing you can walk away from is a good landing and I recall walking away from that landing completely unscathed. Which is more than I can say for the space station which crashed into the planet with a spectacular planet rattling kaboom.

very interesting. regarding many studies, in deep sleep there is no dreaming, maybe just dreamlessnes - all you can point to after waking up. if there’s an observer, it’s a dream - as you said. you know the symbol with the triangle and the eye? thats pretty much the pointing to this experiencer or dreamer, not in a religious, just in a ordinary sense. or you could say its the smile in the background, always just watching the show. the absolute instantaneous knowledge given by the experience that all you can reach is not what you are. seems like this dreamer fells into sleep at night and wakes up in the morning, but that’s apparently not it, seems there’s something that needs no dreamer or experience for being…

According to the concept of string - theory and multidimensional universe, maybe it’s the observer looking at another “reality” or dimension of multiverse. but you never know what the observer is looking at next, not having any decision. so you crash into planets and reincarnate in your bed waking up every morning, dying every night falling asleep in dreamlessnes or whatever. isn’t this the circle of reincarnation?

Given that events in the surrounding physical world can influence a dream it seems rather unlikely that a dream is a person observing another dimension. What I mean is that in some cases when your alarm goes off you hear it in your dream, but perhaps believe it to be a bell or something.

It would seem to me that the brain is still processing sensory input while a person is dreaming and that the dream may very well be the brain stitching together various different memories in association with said sensory input. So you smell something, you hear something, you feel something and the brain grabs various memories it associates with those particular inputs and stitches them together.

Dreaming, as I understand it, is something that is generally a function of the creative side of the brain, the logical side is largely non-functional which would explain why, in my example dream, I didn’t care to wonder why things were so suddenly different than my typical waking reality. While sleeping the portion of the brain that cares to ask why and how isn’t doing a whole lot.

P.S. Interesting new research into the human brain suggests that we essentially live in our memories, a few microseconds behind actual events. Interestingly this research indicates that decision making may be rather autonomous as brain scans show we don’t become consciously aware of having made a decision until after it was made.

So what may be happening here is that the brain processes and reacts to sensory input, then stores that input into memory which is only then accessed by the frontal lobe for analysis. After having been analyzed the necessary changes, if any, are made for future events.

Really we’re not making decisions in the now, but only analyzing why we did certain things and then letting the brain automatically modify itself based upon this analysis in preparation for possible future events. So the brain can react to something, then later analyze if the outcome of that reaction was favorable or unfavorable then make the necessary adjustments for the next similar encounter.

It should be noted, of course, that it is important that the creative and logical minds work in conjunction with one another. The fact that we have both is most likely the reason our race has been so successful.

The creative mind is useful for, you know art of course which we all love, but also that proverbial outside of the box thinking. When faced with a problem we use the creative mind to come up with a wide array of options ranging from the overly sensible to the completely off the wall crazy nonsense then the logical mind steps in to pick from among those options what it believes to be the most logical course of action.

A purely creative being would probably have a tough time surviving in the real world. They’d be likely to jump off a cliff thinking they could fly and if they survived jump off again thinking the previous time was just a fluke.

A purely logical being wouldn’t be likely to make it to the stone age because they’d lack the capability to invent.

One is by no means more important than the other.

…true, just concepts what could be or not be.

…heard that. this could also be a pointing to synchronizity of events in multiverse, a bell here is a alarm there. regarding quantum/string theory quants/strings state in multidimensions, maybe what awarness is could too and if surrounding physical world is existence the influence wouldn’t be necessarily a proof that it is rather unlikely another dimension as influence could define a multidimensional effect.

…if you look at it logically, by understanding. but in multiverse this could also be the counterpart or one of many dimensions of what you believe is waking reality, who knows? in theory it is not utterly out of the question. interesting is where this all comes from and goes to every night in deep sleep.

…read about it. just another proof that the source of all this thinking can’t be proven at all. who is living in memories? maybe there is no brain making adjustments and all this is just the ordinary mystery of existence, still unsolvable - no way out.

You know, science is all about observation and probably the most tried and true of these observations is the bedrock principle that the simplest solution is most often the best solution.

So from a scientific point of view it is likely the best option, when picking from among a set of possibilities, to generally subscribe to the simplest as it is most likely, however not positively, the correct option. Obviously when you have a set of possible solutions, none of which proven, then you subscribe to the simplest and therefore most likely while allowing exploration of the other possible options as well. So you say, this is the most probable, nonetheless there are these other possibilities that could be the correct fit, however less likely.

If you don’t do it that way then you’re essentially lost in a sea of infinite possibility because there is far more we do not know then what we do know. As far as we know the universe could have been sneezed into existence by a snorgasaur and while this is certainly possible, observation suggests it rather unlikely.

Moreover you’ve got to pull yourself aside and ask yourself to what degree are we getting ahead of ourselves here, how far outside the realm of observability have we traveled? If it’s too far then perhaps pull yourself back a bit to realign yourself with observation. If, in the long run, we reach a point where new observations negate past conclusions then we move forward from that point.

While multi-verse is certainly possible, among pretty much an infinite amount of other possibilities, it is, in my opinion, far from the most likely. There are other theories that are not only simpler, but that also more closely align with observation. That certainly does not mean multi-verse is incorrect, just that at this point in time evidence suggests it is less likely when compared to other possibilities.

When you look at something that is unknown, such as what is a dream, sure you can always say the boogieman did it and quite frankly he certainly could be behind it as far as we know, it just isn’t likely.

When we peer into the brain obviously there’s a lot going on in there. The brain has been called, by some, possibly the most complex object in the universe so it’s probably going to be a long time until we have a good idea of exactly what’s happening.

However; from an observational standpoint I believe that I can say what is complex about the brain is not how it works, but what’s going on while it works.

That is to say how it works is simple cause and reaction, but the path that each reaction takes is terribly complex, at least from our point of view. So, for instance, you have a cause, say person A kicks person B. Where the foot lands a reaction begins, one or more nerve endings fire a signal to their neighboring neuron which then fires a signal to the next neuron. This signal is passed from one neuron to the next until it reaches the brain where it continues to traverse a complex system of interlinked neurons.

From where the signal originates in the body, the signal strength, possibly the speed of the signal combine with signals from other sensory input occurring at the same time causing the signal to traverse one of a great many possible paths in the brain. Like a change receiver in a soda machine, certain properties of the coin determine the path it will take as it travels to the coin collector.

The signal traverses this path, leaving the brain and traveling all the way down to the arm where it causes billions of muscle cells to contract and a resulting punch ensues.

While this is certainly not a proven fact, it is, in my opinion, the simplest solution when compared to multi-dimensional and/or super symmetry theories because it does not rely on unobserved and currently unobservable possibility.

P.S. In the cause and reaction example at no point is there really any decision making going on. Like the coin machine the signal follows a pre-defined path, but there are a wide variety of signals that the brain handles and the brain, unlike todays computers, is quite versatile. Some of those signals don’t take a path leading them to arm muscles, some signals trigger changes in the pathways that exist in the brain altering the paths future signals might take.

So it appears as though we make decisions, it appears as though we can change our mind and conciously react to something one way at one point in time and another way at another point in time, but really the change in reactivity is not due to some internal decision, but instead comes from an external signal that, at one point or another, triggered a change in the brain’s geometry.

Because of the complex nature of the interweaved pathways in the brain and their possibly constant state of change all sorts of things can change. A signal that triggers a change in one pathway could trigger a completely different change at a different point in time if the pathway it took the first time your brain received that signal has, itself, been changed.

These alterations in our brains could be called learning, but really it’s no different than the way the grand canyon was formed or how space dust coelesces into a star.

P.P.S. One person saying they’re smarter than another would be like a volcano saying it’s smarter than a cloud. One person saying they’re better than another would be like Jupiter saying it’s better than Saturn.

In regards to string theory. One of the main goals of cosmology is to answer the question why is our universe the way it is? The main problem with inflation, string or otherwise multi-verse theories is that they do not answer that question.

String theory results in a multi-verse in which there are an infinite number of universes each filling one of an infinite amount of possibilities. Which suggests that in at least one of those universes the boogieman is behind nightmares and that universe was sneezed out by a snorgasaur. Besides that the problem is when you ask why is our particular universe the way that it is String theory’s answer is that it could have been any of an infinite amount of possibilities and the reason this is the possibility that it is has no reason other than it just is. Which, of course, BPR himself said nothing just is and if that’s true then String theory is not.

In addition to that if String theory is true it still doesn’t answer if our universe is the one that was sneezed out by a snorgasaur or not. If String theory is true then one of those infinite universes must’ve been sneezed out, which one is it, is it ours?

P.S. It should be noted, of course, that I personally believe the universe is cyclical so any opinion I give on the subject of other theories, such as string theory, is coming from someone who is biased towards cyclical universe. I certainly acknowledge and welcome that others have different opinions.

…maybe. as you said before all we claim solution or decision is a look back, even though its just milliseconds. but what is the origin of all these decisions and solutions? energy? brain? brainfunctions? however, i don’t see why this is rather unlikely? the fact that this isn’t common sense in science wouldn’t proof that universe hasn’t been sneezed into existence. if you look at a unprepared sneeze at your car window, it almost looks like big bang. maybe you once created a universe by yourself, sneezing?

…if you look at thinks logically, observing, concluding its allright if you do that as long as you have to but there are so many ways to move forward to somewhere or look at things. also creative thinking could take you there - like Einstein said imagination is more important than knowledge. you could also have a idea by accident while getting lost in the sea of infinite possibilities - why not?

…thats how you evaluate reality and dreams. at least a good pointing! you could also say the boogieman is nothing else as a symbol for the absolute dreamer painted in dark colors.

…i am excited until the day they find out who has this brain. where is he in deep sleep?

…thats maybe just the frontiers of observation or experience. you can say something happens when it happened while you observered or experienced it. seems like ideas change and transform all the time without delivering the perfect or any answers for fundamental questions in life.

…nice concepts driven by believe as you said above.

…that seems the problem with all theories.

…exciting because you never know if it is until you know. maybe it is!

…cool!

Depends on what you consider creating a universe, what I did, if I sneezed, and not consciously so, by sneezing is convert a portion of the universe from one form into another. This new form may very well be capable of harboring a large microbial environment, but regardless of its ability to sustain life it is nonetheless a collection of substance that, as a whole, was at one time one thing and now another.

I disagree with Einstein in that imagination is more important than knowledge, I think they are of equal importance. Socrates once said “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” That’s not to say that I do or do not subscribe to that sentiment, merely pointing out that not all of history’s so called greatest thinkers agree with one another.

Personally I find nothing wrong taking a trip out into a sea of infinite possibilities, in fact I find it rather refreshing, but it’s important not to get lost out there. You need to be able to find your way back home otherwise you may find yourself stuck in a very poor situation. For in that sea lurk a great many dangers, consider someone who drops acid, never tried it myself, but the drug really seems to activate that creative mind and sometimes people have what they call a good trip while others have what they call a bad trip.

If you’re not careful you could wind up living a bad trip the rest of your life because you didn’t take care to keep your wits about you.

Depends on what you consider sleep. As a metaphor for someone whose creative mind has run amok while their logical mind remains largely inactive you could say he’s probably sleeping yes.

Driven by belief and observation.

Some to a greater degree than others. Knowing the answers to all the questions the universe has to offer isn’t something I think we can expect to achieve anytime soon, but, string theory, for instance wouldn’t ever be able to answer any fundamental questions no matter how much time is spent researching. In other words string theory suggests scientists might as well give up because there’s no answer. Even if that’s true, I’d like to keep looking just to be sure.

I agree, maybe some Blender Artists should model their vision of a Snorgasaur for shits and kicks :wink:

Thanks. Some people are easily influenced, I myself have strong opinions, but like to make sure that I’m not putting too much influence on the beliefs of others. If someone likes my opinion and they’d like to make it their own that’s great, but they should know that I, like everyone else, do not know everything so if they’re looking to formulate an opinion based off of something I said they might consider seeking a second or even third opinion so they can roll that information around in their own head before deciding with whom, if any, they wish to agree.

P.S. And if you have a home and you find that one day that home is threatened by the rising waters from the sea of infinite possibility build yourself a boat so that you may stay afloat. Day after day send out a little bird in search of solid land, and when you find that land build yourself a new home.

…could possibly happen too if you take a ordinary trip using public transports and being robbed at the subway, so you never know if you get lost in yourself or a sea of possibilities somehow, if you take care of yourself or not.

…referring to slow-wave sleep (SWS). running amok would be REM then, dreaming while sleeping.

…nice picture, but who could have a home? where is he during deep sleep? all you have you loose every night, so home is just a friendly concept.

Thanks, if you didn’t already notice it was a reference to the old Noah’s Ark story. Home essentially representing that which one believes in and water, in this case, representing the unknown.

So if one day you should find that your beliefs are swallowed by the great unknown, that is discover that what you believe to be real or true turns out to be false or fictional, then at that time you’ll find yourself floating in a great ocean of possibilities. Where you once lived is no more and so you must brave the great unknown to once again find a firm foundation upon which to build your new home, your new world or what you believe the world to be.

The boat, or ark, is constructed of solid pieces of substance that survived the destruction of your once beloved home, or belief system. Use these bits to keep yourself from drowning in the great unknown, they will help you to find solid firmament, a solid foundation that exists somewhere out there.

So the boat is constructed out of bits that survived the destruction of the world you once believed to exist. In other words what you once believed is no more, but hopefully some of what you once knew is still believed to be true and you can use those bits to help you find something new to believe in.

That was a lot of fun, great conversation Jester Elly, haven’t done any jujitsu in a long time. Felt great to stretch out the ole legs.

Metaphors are a lot fun:

Local legend says there’s an enchanted forest 'round these parts. This particular forest is inhabited by ghouls, goblins and demons of all sorts. It is said that within this forest can be found the secret of eternal life. Many have tried, but none have come back alive.

If you wish to accept this quest you’ll need three things, a sword, a hardy suit of armor and a map. Now the sword and suit of armor are easy, you can make your own or pick one up from a blacksmith. The map, on the other hand, that’s where it gets interesting.

You see, there are several different types of maps most of which are widely available, often for free, while others are only available in fragments on display in museums. The different types are, believe it or not, all actually the same map, but written in different prehistoric languages that were never translated into modern dialects.

The maps themselves pre-date written languages, they were originally passed down through the generations by word of mouth so much of the information may have been distorted over the years.

yeah nice conversation, thanks too!

cool…that’s quite the same how family - generations over 3000 years+ shared their secret knowledge about the effects of meditation and special exercises e.g. in t’ai chi ch’uan or yoga. they also claimed to live eternally by doing these exercises and following a roadmap. but you wont get there anyway nor return from there what eternal life is, as there is no coming and going at all.

actually metaphors like that are still pointing to the source of being and knowledge. if there is someone thinking, living a life, it’s a relative but that’s not what you are or the world came from (if there is a world) because this guy fells asleep every night and wakes up in the morning, without knowing himself existing while deep sleep. so whats there before that? must be what the absolute being left over in deep sleep is?

the secret of eternal life or what some referring to as lifenessles doesn’t need or can’t have any life at all as it doesn’t know about himself as entity like your toes doesn’t know about you as a person. if someone seems to be living somewhere it is all relative thinking or relative phenomenons, as relatives need relations like birth and death, light and shadow, whatever and nothing, creation and decay to be recognizable.

so maybe when people discovered the realm, the secret knowledge or whatever you name it, they forgot about themselves just being what they absolutely are so that’s why no one could ever return from there? thats almost the experience of a satori. as you may have figured out there is also no one getting there. the funny thing is, this secret is so ordinary no one really recognizes this because its maybe too simple - you can’t avoid or not not be what this lifelessnes is because that’s where all this thinking and not-thinking absolutely seems to come from.

beside that, possibly there are several locations in the world where a satori is more likely to happen (if it happens at all; as its just ordinary and can happen at the subway too), and these locations (or buildings like churches) are placed on geographic meridians like earths’ energy gates where experiences of that pointing to the source of whatever are more likely.

Is this even a thread on automation in application development anymore?

If you want to continue this (completely tangential) discussion on universal and way-out-there theory, it would be advised to have a new thread and get this one back to automated coding.

@Jester Elly: Like the toes it seems rather unlikely that a single neuron in our brain knows that it is part of a network of organisms that together make up another larger organism.

And so perhaps the same is true of us. Many look at themselves as disconnected independent organisms with little or no relation to our neighbor. But then again perhaps it is that each individual is actually like the neuron, a single part of a network of organisms that together make up another larger organism and this larger organism is only beginning to become self-aware, wake up or perhaps resurrect.

@Ace Dragon: I certainly don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes and I’m sure Jester Elly doesn’t either. Try to understand that I find conversations more like a river which rarely, if ever, follow a straight line and often go off on tangents.

I could certainly be wrong here, but the there’s a good chance that this thread was already pretty good and dead by the time Jester and I began going off on tangents so, if anything, all we did was breathe new life into it. Nonetheless I’m more than happy to return to the original topic should someone chime in and move the conversation back in that direction, I’m certainly not stopping anyone from doing so.