exit iMac for Blender ?

I used Bestbuy as an example. If one can build a rig alone great works good for that person - but those are not really in the majority of end users. I simply pointed out some infrastructure points. If you want to discuss price the right way you cannot just pick well fitting arguments and leave the rest out. That was all.

That service the person got from Dell was I would slightly assume not for free - I bet the person was on a paid service plan. You have the same with Apple as well to exchange hardware in case after the normal warranty time something breaks. I also saw and witnessed the opposite of Dell customer service when Windows was acting up crazy.

At the Apple store they do not only take care of hardware issues or such if possible but also the system if needed.

Not sure why we have to argue about this - everybody knows it.

BTW Waynestate is dummy ID - there is a funny IP based log-in issue from my home network. I am at work now.

@ Waynestate

I have two 21in iMacs and was looking to upgrade this year. But soldered in ram, no dedicated GPU, no SSD or fusion drive only 5400rpm mechanical drive from the dark ages. I’d actually be downgrading to upgrade so i’m forced to move away from apple to get my work done.

Don’t confuse ‘hate’ with disappointment. I think people have been very honest in this thread, the questions and facts raised are genuine, especially where blender and 3d rendering is concerned.

@ SaintHaven

Don’t worry, i’m not getting ahead of myself, but i have chopped a few motorcycles in the past, so the custom thing is in my genes.
I’m a tinkerer by nature, love modding things and taking things apart.

This build will be a simple x99 workstation with silence in mind, noctua fans and a define r5 case, not a drop of H20 or overclocking in mind.

Exactly

-The discussion so far, has ranged from which new iMac actually has a GPU, -what the old iMacs were like GPU wise, -which new Mac Book Pro’s have GPU’s, -what the older ones were like, -and which CPU’s are actually in the Mac Pro desktop (apple doesn’t actually self-publish the specific model/part numbers which makes them a little harder to look up/understand, MS does the same thing with the Surface Pro line and so do many other big vendors) -and how server centric Xeon’s in general compare to more moderately priced i7’s and i5’s for the purposes of most Blender/3D purposed workstations which aren’t offered as options in the current line-up for buying a full fledged OSX desktop that can run a full fledged desktop GPU -and the comparable cost of alternatives. This all adds up to some picture of what to expect in the future, very relevant, especially if you have important software that you can only run on OSX or are in the market for an upgrade.

The exact information you need to understand to make an informed decision for a personal purchase or a purchase for your business.

Now Waynestate brought up a great point. Support, and the distance of support, and the user’s/owner’s, of the machines, technical ability to trouble shoot. There is something to be said to being able to put an erroring Workstation tower in a car, take it down the street, drop it off at the shop for repair, and pick up a loaner to get back to the office and get back working, or the ability to make a phone-call and possibly get things straightened out that way, quickly.

One has to balance cost with their budget. In some cases it might be cheaper, or just in general more useful, to purchase or build 2 or even 3 machines for redundancy so that you don’t even lose that single hour on the phone or in the car! If you make a lot of money at your craft, it might not even be worth it financially to spend even an hour (let alone a day which I do a few times a year, at least) playing about to fix a stubborn technical issue. In these cases you should always get better support from a big box vendor (in particular Apple who has shops all over the place), or if it’s mission critical enough/your business is profitable enough, to have several serviceable machines and a freelance tech guy who can come to your office and fix one of them when it’s having problems, while never skipping a beat at the office because you have 2 other powerful machines at hand.

There are a few PC vendors who make systems that would qualify as pretty solid Blender workstations, and they do it at reasonable prices compared to what you would build on your own (they save money by buying in mass and volume licensing Windows or providing you with pre-installed Linux) you still pay a little more in the end, but if something goes wrong, you can drop the machine off at the post office and have it sent back later while you use a different system.

Personally, I like the 2-4 system redundancy option, but I fix any machine that is having issues myself -when time permits. I know full well, why this isn’t even worth some peoples free time and for most, is not a fun experience, -I get enjoyment out of it. Word of warning to the freelancers considering building their own workstation, it’s no fun at all to trouble shoot a system if you only have 1 machine, and you have deadlines and bills to pay! Redundancy is key.

Actually if you want to build your own rig - might not a Hackintosh be an option?

This way you can get the PC hardware and price you want but use both OS Win10 or OS X.
If at one point OS X would not run on a Hackintosh you could still then use Win10 or Ubuntu.

Honestly I give a crap about what hardware and from where is inside the machine - I am much more OS specific.

Claas

There are legality/licensing issues with it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+hackintosh+legal&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

At the end, put aside all things you said because for pro user they are totally not important, Macs are just not in pair with what pro users wants. As a pro user I need to be able to expand my system, but with Apple nowadays only way to do it is to purchase new device, which is very exspensive solution. Also as a 3d artist I need to be always on top of how tech advances, with Apple you just can not. I do not know why they do things like they do but it is just too limiting. And as a pro user I just can not accept that … Their devices are great for consumer market that needs something ‘reliable’, and do not need to think much about how things work … Pro user, not seasoned 3d wannabe, needs different things, and lately Apple can not deliver that, unfortunately.
And to be clear this is being written by OSX user, for decades …

OpenSubdiv does work on Macs, just not in Blender. The only reason it doesn’t is because Blender’s OpenGL is really old a crufty. If Blender were to to use OpenGL 4 (been out for years) , it’d work fine. Moving to OpenGL 4 would bring other benefit too.

AFAIK the driver issues have been solved in the latest OS X El Capitan.

The general philosophy and design of the Mac Pro system, especially if updated, is very well suited to 3d/Blender work.

No you are wrong, only reason is because how Apple implements OpenGL in their OS. How it works in Linux and Windows but not in OSX? That is because Apple thinks that we are all creating small apps and we can easily switch to their business decisions, just because they can not do what Linux and Win devs can … And this is not Blender issue, there are many commercial apps hat have same problem. Especially now when they decided to ditch OpenGL in favour Metal.

Not all issues were resolved, mostly ones related to AMD cards.

Well dear lord our students in our animation major must be really hurting because they are forced to work with MacPro’s and Maya …

BTW it is only Blender that has the openGL issue.
No other 3D app I have or GPU accelerated app have any complaints.
Furthermore performance also in all CAD apps between OS X and Win is the same. And I sometimes work on CAD models that have a complete car model. Alias Automotive is a pretty powerful NURBS modeler which can deal with extremely dense designs and it performs flawless - just that old iMac with a 7 year old 512MB GPU showed some lagging.

Of course then Blender would give up on those models already in both OSs. Blender already chokes
when I feed it my 3D model scans. What runs with a simple model lag free in Maya such as selecting the vertices results into stop motion in Blender. Alias or Maya just laughs at Blender there.

My Point: Today honestly as long as you don’t need raw CPU/GPU for CUDA rendering nearly every system is for most of the tasks everybody does here sufficient. The PC or iMac has no good GPU? No problem attach an external GPU rig via now extremely fast Thunderbolt tech. Adding hardware to the inside is not by today the only option anymore.

Fact is Blender’s 3D view port and also UV image editor shows a poor performances compared to commercial apps.

There is truth to how Apple made access to openGL harder than on Windows. But it is not the case the MS themselves tried to stiffel openGL or even influence chip makers with directX support.

It is however also a fact how the scene did not really develop something worthwhile which is why Apple decided to go with Metal and this kind of step from a software evolution view point was long over due. openCL and openGL are obese - directX also somewhat shows similar issues while by far not that strongly. AMDs attempt failed. But now Metal or Vulcan are more modern approaches to solve the issue.

All this openGL talk I think is highly inflated when oddly in other apps it all works performance wise the same in each OS on the same hardware I have. And if you google GPU accelerated issues in apps on Windows the web is also full there.

What will be interesting is how those new standards will be implemented and hopefully improve the scene.

Honestly you sound like fanboy.

First it is not true that is just Blender issue, same is for Houdini for example. SideFX had to rewrite most of app to be able to give same performance as it gives to Windows and Linus users. After more than 2 years spent, and still lot of bugs, they got punch in their face after all effort put into rewrite, as Apple now decided to go with Metal.

And Maya has better viewport performance … really you are using that to prove how Apple OpenGL support is good, it is just devs are lazy … really?

I think you need to re-read my text again.

I was making a reference to first that there obviously is an issue with openGL support among Apple but oddly in all high end apps I use on OS X and Win10 the performance is the same. I also deal with very high density meshes.

The fact is if you load a to dense mesh into Blender it chokes on it. If you image is too big the UV editor chokes.
So I hardly can think that this is a bottle neck on OS X when that chokyness happens on WIN 10 - let me repeat Win 10.

No devs are not lazy thats not the point and that is also not what I pointed out. Blender is a pretty old app the code bases is also in some areas simply old
and sadly that mix Apple does not like - which is not good.

And again GPU acceleration also has issues under Windows. Maybe google it a bit.

To summarize: You say I sound like a fan boy.

I simply state what is really hurting here and being an issue

The openGL state and support under OS X

or

In general the 3D viewport performance of Blender because also under Win 10 with better openGL support Blender also lags crazy with dense meshes

Specifically compared to the fact that the same file/mesh runs equally fast in Alias and Maya in both OS X and Win10.

Now you tell me :wink:

The outfit known as iFixIt also gave possibly another reason why power users should avoid the mac, it’s completely impossible to upgrade and it’s also impossible to repair if it breaks.

So you’d basically be getting a machine that is quite expensive for the specs. with the knowledge that you will need to buy another machine if you want to bump up even one spec. Most desktop vendors at least allow for a few options.

Hi Ace - yeah this we glue everything together is pretty stupid - but annoyingly an increasingly common manufacturing process not only among Apple. In general however I would say that from my experience the hardware from Apple holds pretty long. In all the years I had PCs and Apple products only the GPU in the 2006 iMac burned out and the GPU in the MacBookPro died. The NVIDIA card had a manufacturing defect. However if there is a serious issue hardware wise in nearly all instances if it is linked to like with NVIDIA you can turn in the device and they replace it for free. Some of the PC laptops fall apart. One from Walmart what was that brand had a cow fur logo showed material fatigue already after 7 months.

So even with parts glued on what are honestly the chances something will break. The Surface Pro 3 has the same issue if one wants to see it this way. That iMac 2008 I could repair for 300 dollars meaning buying the part but economically that machine is too old for that.
It is a nice light table now.

And if you need more RAM just order when purchasing such a device. Not a hard decision - that Apple overcharges for the RAM we can agree on.

Ace I had to notice your comment. I’m on my third HP this one being ordered out of the so called ‘Performance Section’ three years ago with a update to a GT 530 card and a 460W Power Supply. As I mentioned in another thread I have attempted to update this bitch with three different Nvidia cards. The latest one being a expensive paper weight sitting over there.

But, that was before I discovered a popular HP forum fill of irate owners. It seems HP only updates their BIOS for a year. My machine was 700 dollars configured that way. But, god knows it could have cost much more. I mean a 600 watt power supply being offered as a upgrade for what. The three cards being offered would have happily run on the 300 watt default. Well, at least two of them.

So with that it ceased to be a pathetic joke and became false advertising in my book. The Performance Section: Exactly what did that mean. Someone editing photographs. Wouldn’t you think a consumer would have the expectation to update the machine after paying for a 460W power supply. And, being offered a 600W power supply as another upgrade. Thank god I didn’t spring for that.

Now to be honest all three HP machines have given me excellent service. But, being interested in animation I wouldn’t buy another one if paid to. And, maybe I should copy this to Notepad. Just maybe this needs to be a stand alone thread in some category. Anyway it’s not just Mac.


For crying out loud. stop comparing $500 PCs to $1500 Macs… truth is you get what you pay for, regardless of brand. A friend swears by his HP Z workstation, and won´t buy anything else than HP because of the great service he gets.

If you want a machine with upgrading possibilities and the best bang for your buck, then the only real choice in this matter is to get a tower-based desktop (the all-in-one’s are hard to upgrade by default because things are packed in there pretty tight and they tend to be a bit pricier for the same specs.).

However, they are a dream for casual computer users because they don’t have to worry about anything (because even the monitor is chosen for you, then again they have much less need to upgrade).

Another plus for desktop machines is that they seem to be the most reliable over the long-term as well, mainly the models that come with larger towers and fewer visual bells and whistles.

Just to note, it doesnt have to be a tower at all. You have 3 viable builds imo (technically 4 if you count extended ATX):
General ATX (most common)
Micro ATX (smaller case options)
Mini ITX (Tiny footprint)

This means you have a variety of options for size and modularity when it comes to PC parts. Mini ITX builds can often be found with smaller custom PSU (power supply unit) built into the cases themselves. The EGVA Hadron is a good example of this. At Siggraph this year, the Intel booth had a lot of their graphic intensive demos running on these little EVGA Hadron builds.

Dear lord have piety with those of my design contacts who do not work with the most lastest and custom build computers because they are misled into thinking that they can work be productive and call themselves professionals. Also dear lord please forgive me that I am still using hardware from 2008 but even with the new equipment in the labs oddly Blender does not blend model faster.

This must be a serious conspiracy here …

Missed you post because of different ID…

I did read your text carefully, you are talking about different thing here. You took one ting beating it like dead horse, proving nothing, that is why I said that you sound like fanboy, typical for their conversation. I am not talking about end user experience with OpenGL, I am talking from developers point of view when I talk about bad OpenGL implementation on OSX. The way how Apple implemented OpenGL is what we have problem with, and as I said it is not just Blender that has problem with it. I gave you example with Houdini. Everything Apple does, lately, is too limiting, from way how they restrict OpenGL usage to how they restrict their hardware.

Your example with large meshes on both systems, on Blender or Maya proves only that Apple messed up with OpenGL, if they implemented OpenGL like Windows and Linux devs did it, we would have same performance we have now (your conclusion) plus we would be able to use OpenSubD in Blender, for example. As end user we would have same performance we have now, plus devs life would be much easier and as they would not need to rewrite most of their app (rarely software company has resource of doing this, many failed - XSI). Do you see what I am talking about?

They way how Apple handles this will lead that only AD and Adobe will have interest and resources into developing for OSX , there is no chance that Blender will be able to convert to Metal in next few years, so you are stuck with OpenGL2… And on Windows or Linux same Blender will have more and more features, like happened with OpenSubD already. As a Blender user, I really need to think about future, what I see now is that I need to switch towards Windows or Linux to get maximum from Blender in future. In several years if Blender gather resources to rewrite Blender to use Metal I will go back to OSX easily, but probably will retire before that happens :smiley: