Cycles vs BI for animations?

Hello,
Could somebody give me advice as for which render engine I should use for making animations? I know that each of them have their pros and cons, so which one do you use for animations?

I think a major factor for me would be render times. It’s obvious that Cycles is a lot slower, especially when you need a high amount of samples to remove the ‘noise’ in the shading. However, Cycles could make use of my GPU (Nvidia GTX 650) whereas Blender Internal can only use the CPU (Intel Core i5, so it’s still okay).

I was planning on using Cycles for my next animation, since the shading looked a lot better than BI’s Ambient Occlusion, without knowing you had to increase the samples for the AO to look less pixelated :stuck_out_tongue:
Realism is not an issue for the animation, just nice-looking shading, which can be done in BI and Cycles. Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance :slight_smile:

Damn guy we really don’t have much to go on. However, if realism is not a consideration go with BI. And, I have no idea what pixilation you are talking about. Because if you’re in BI you probably have one to five lights at least. Or, bake all your large diffused surfaces in Cycles to cut down on render times. You have a pretty decent machine for either in my book.

Okay, thanks for the advice. By pixelation I mean the noise that appears when you don’t use enough samples in your render.

You are exactly right: the major factor is render times. Since render times depends a lot on your specific scene, textures, lighting, hardware, etc, etc… the best thing to do is test both, and go with the one that gives you the quality you want with an acceptable render time. There is no “best solution” and something that works for one set up may not be the best for another.,

Thanks :slight_smile:
The problem is with testing both is that I would have to recreate all the materials from BI to Cycles (or the other way round). It is apparent already that Cycles will take a lot longer to render, even with low samples.

sam we still don’t have much to go on. Is your story two animated characters or a walk down the street of a small town. Unless you have a machine like Andrew Price just purchased animating at home is painful tradeoffs. And, to put that in perspective we have young shipyard workers in my town driving cars to work every morning worth less then his computer setup. Actually, I should say they are rowing them to work on a wing and a prayer.

Now I just moved my little project from YafaRay into Cycles. So I’m no Cycles guru by any means. But, the reason I did that is YafaRay doesn’t support Baking. And, in the enclosed picture just Baking that diffuse wall on the left cut down on render times tremendously. And, since this is a render where the camera will be moving noise is something I simply have to accept. My graphics card, unlike yours, is a bottom feeder. So the sad truth is I have to accept more noise then you do.

Now the art thingy in the right foreground will be rotating. So no Baking is possible there. Not to mention if a glossy node is even in the mix forget Baking. Oh and one other thing. Sometimes a 3:00 minute render time per frame is something to embrace.

I guess the bottom line is if you have a project which has to have some global illumination, and I think mine does, then by all means use Cycles set to limited GI with caustics if needed. And, Bake the lighting where you can with diffuse surfaces. (Combined Bake)

If however your story would lend itself to a scanline renderer like BI consider yourself lucky. Or, you could try YafaRay set to Direct Lighting with AO. It will give you a look much like Cycles set to Limited GI only faster. And, it has caustics in Direct Light mode. Both of them are amazing little render engines which might suit your purpose.

As I mentioned before you have a fairly nice machine to attempt animation in. But, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t explore all the possibilities. And, maybe accept this basic truth. Animating at home on one machine is simply a Bitch in all caps. Even if you subscribe to my way of thinking. Enough realism, if even necessary, to draw the average viewer into the scene is plenty. And, Pixar has work stations which might cost more then your entire worth or mine. Try to explore the options even on limited time and have fun.


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By the way, the young shipyard workers he’s talking about don’t drive beaters. Longshoremen are unionized, so once somebody gets in, they are making a shit pot of money, compared to whatever they were making working at the convenience store or Walmart. Hell, longshoreman pay is a step up from a lot of young urban professional salaries. Young shipyard workers buy NICE rides.

For basic animation/scenes 10 samples is plenty. Use large planes for emission. Drown the scene in light similar to how light works in real life.

Whoa brother from Los Angeles. The comment was made tongue in cheek but the reality is our state is right to work. And, I was talking about shipbuilders not longshoremen. Maybe you’ve heard of Newport News Shipyard on the coast out there. And, yeah they do have kids coming in who wonder if they can even make the probation period at the yard who drive beaters as you refer to them.

Hell I remember kids going to lunch the first the day and never returning. Leaving their newly bought, on credit, safety shoes on the company provided toolbox. Of course that was before modular construction. Prior to that the noise alone would drive some to temporary insanity. And, you have never lived until you showed up in that work environment with the hang over from hell.

As far as your comment about unions yes we had a national union but once again they are attempting to operate in a right to work state. And not just any right to work state but the Commonwealth of Virginia. And, I’ve been in the streets on strike where the entire weight of that same entity came down on your head like a local cops nightstick. But, by the third day that riot stick was being welded by a state trooper.

My post was to hopefully help the new animator. But, for some reason you took a comment I made and drove this off topic. The probation period in that yard is ninety days (90) by the way. And, many don’t even hang on to being a third class helper. And, leave Newport News driving the same beater they drove in with.


The largest gantry crane in the Western Hemisphere. Built in Germany and then assembled in Newport News with the help of German engineers. Where it has been utilized by Newport News shipbuilders ever since.

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Right to work. Oh, damn, sorry about that. I guess I’m spoiled living so long in sunny Southern Cal. Course, the Long Beach Shipyard that was is now the container terminal of the Port of Los Angeles that is, so stevedores is what we do here.

That is one amazing crane. Are they really lowering the bridge onto the deck of an aircraft carrier? Incredible.

Yeah, the probationary longshoremen aren’t rich, most of them work other jobs while they get their hours in to get their ticket. But once they have it… You can usually tell because a new Hummer shows up on the block. Or maybe a Range Rover.

Now, if sam were willing to share his blend file, he’d probably get a better answer than “try it and see”. heh, heh… back on topic :wink:

Getting back to the original topic … ahem … I’d suggest that the right way to look at the project, in the interest of render time as well as flexibility, is to use all of the rendering alternatives that Blender gives you, to achieve your best advantage.

For instance, I would start with “OpenGL Preview” renders, then(!) actually turn-off the markers and so forth with the eye toward actually using(!) those frames as the foundation of the shot. (OpenGL is very good already, and getting better.)

Then, I would look for specific areas that needed more detail or improvement, and use Blender Internal to create compositing layers (everything, BTW, going to “MultiLayer OpenEXR” files …) which will deal with only those specific areas.

And, finally, if there was some effect or “visual sugar” that truly called for Cycles, I’d use that to “put the icing on the cake.”

Point is, in an animation especially, it often isn’t necessary to spend grueling amounts of computational hours to produce gruelingly accurate detail that either … will fly-by on the screen too fast to see, or, really aren’t the viewer’s focus-of-attention anyway, or that are unnecessary frames which really ought to be cut (except that now you can’t bear to cut them because you spent so many hours rendering them?).

You need to be economical with your rendering resource, and at all costs to avoid having to re-render something such that your entire investment in the previous render is “sunk cost.” When you start with something that is detailed-but visually-simple®, as an OpenGL render will be, and then use other technologies to add to this foundation as your (and your director’s, and your client’s) eyes actually dictate, you will find yourself actually using the render-time in a very different way than you originally anticipated.

Another key point is to “OpenGL Preview” render the entire sequence first, and to “do the rough-cut maybe final-cut now.” It does you zero good to painstakingly, lovingly render hundreds of frames that you never actually use. Instead, quickly render lots of footage from lots of camera angles that you might use, then edit the thing as though it were conventional film or videotape. When you see the actors actually moving and playing-out the script, and you start cutting-out the “fluff,” a lot of that footage is gonna wind up on the floor. But, it’s okay, because you don’t have a lot of time-and-energy invested in that footage. Try to get the project to “edit lock” before you start rendering anything in earnest, and before you start making shot-wise decisions as to what will be the fastest / most-effective way to render each one. “Edit, then shoot.™”

@sam.boyer my apologies for going off topic to the max. And, your thread here is turning into something we can all use. Or, at least I can since I’m also struggling after moving to Cycles.

Thanks (again) for the advice. I’ll have a look at YafaRay, but realism isn’t really a problem since it’s going to be voxel-based (a bit like Minecraft). Here’s a screenshot of my first animation, which uses the same style:



I think all it needs is basic AO with as little noise as possible for the shortest render times possible.

Most of it will be set outside, so a singular light would light up the whole set. However, I’m planning on having a couple of scenes at dusk/night. I’m assuming the noise will be more apparent in darker areas with multiple small light sources (e.g. torches).

I haven’t actually started the animation in question yet :confused: It will be similar to that screenshot above though.

Thanks for all the advice! I agree with what you said above, and that’s why I’m not looking for full realism, just some nice looking shading :slight_smile:

Been reading this a bit since the start… but haven’t voiced my opinion yet…

So sam.boyer, you’ve showed use what your scene looks like, but haven’t mentioned what render engine you used. Is the render time acceptable to you? Add in the AO and if the render time is still what you consider good, then go with it.

I would suggest using BI for this. I think it’s the best choice for a simple video game styled render like you are after. I’ll admit I am biased and use BI for almost everything, I’m not really a cycles user because I don’t need the realism it can give me. I do simple animations with simple lighting and AO and BI renders that stuff fast.

This video rendered in less than 2 mins a frame:
http://vimeo.com/117460959On a low spec machine, 2.8 ghz dual core machine. The shadows are a bit noisy, but I was ok with that. If I wanted to remove that noise, it would cost me render time.

What’s the best render engine for your needs? The one that gives you the look you desire in the amount of time your willing to let the computer work.

Yeah, one can waste a lot of time converting materials/textures from one render engine to another.

Randy

I agree, I think BI would be good for video game-like shading, since the game itself is not supposed to look realistic.
Nice animation btw :slight_smile:

Sam if you don’t need caustics give Cycles a try in the default ’ Direct Lighting’ mode sometime. Even with AO it’s pretty quick on modest equipment. I’m thinking that is what I will use in this little project with some baking. Then again as some have mentioned BI is the appropriate renderer sometimes for the look you want.