PDA

View Full Version : Fluid won't bake!! *mad*



Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 12:27
I have this fluid sim. If I set the resolution to 230 or above, Blender crashes immediately upon hitting the bake button. If I set the resolution to 225 or 220, it bakes part way and then Blender crashes with a Visual C++ Runtime Library error saying 'abnormal program termination'. What's going on? I have plenty of RAM, so it has nothing to do with swapping. dam.blend (http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/dam.blend)

System specs are 3.2 Ghz HT P4 and 2 GB DDR2 533 Mhz RAM if it helps. OS is Windows XP Pro.

PapaSmurf
10-Jun-07, 12:42
When you enter a Resoultion, Blender tells you right above it how much required BAKE memory is needed. at 220 it says you need a gig of free memory. My Vista meter says I only have 1 Gig free available out of 2Gig. So, you're out of memory, son. Time to upgrade to 64 bit.

but i must say that I'm proud of you :) for trying instead of saying "it can't" which is juvey speak for "i won't" :(

Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 12:46
Windows task manager says I'm using roughly 1.5 of my 2 Gigs. I'm sorry, but WTF? I have RAM to spare. Or is this that 1.5 Gig per app limit I'm hitting?

[Edit] I can't afford 64 bit Windows, I've given up trying to get Ubuntu to work with my video card, and my CPU isn't 64 bit friendly...:(

PapaSmurf
10-Jun-07, 13:00
Angering, isn't it, that your OS would hog so much RAM when, really, not doing anything? The RAM is not allocated until you click BAKE, you know, so if pre-bake you have .5G available, crash boom bang when you click.

Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 13:03
No, the .5 available is during baking. Even with FF running.

[Edit] w00t! Looks like my CPU supports 64 bits after all! Looks like I'll be fighting with Linux again... *sigh* Hopefully Feisty Fawn will work better than Edgy Eft did.

PapaSmurf
10-Jun-07, 13:44
not for long. looks like 230 needs 1.15g, and 220 needs 1.01, or about 15M per resolution (these numbers are an Estimate). Stanford probably can afford a 64-bit PC.

EDIT: after an hour, I am up to frame 50 of your bake at 230. no crash yet :)

EDIT: just died on frame 50. but boy was it looking good!!!!!! soooooo detailed, almost unreal. or, er, real.

Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 14:26
Mine died last night on frame 24...:( At least I have incentive to fight with Linux again!:D Did you get the same runtime library error?

[Edit] 1 hour and up to frame 50 already!! What kind of a machine do you have?!

[Edit 2] Here's an OpenGL animation of the 24 frames I do have...120 kb (http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/24frames.avi)

PapaSmurf
10-Jun-07, 15:28
i have an HP 7750n - AMD 64X2 5000 2.6GHz 2G 666MHz RAM Vista nVidia 7300.

oh wait. looks like Frame 11..created 50 files though..i thought each file was the mesh data for each frame.

btw...you have to enable softbody for the fluid, AND deflection so that it both deflects softbodies and is itself deflected by softbodies.

Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 15:39
11 frames sound more like it... You had me thinking you had a quantum computer or something!:D This isn't a softbody test, but I will most definitely try one.

RamboBaby
10-Jun-07, 18:29
You might wanna think twice about Feisty 64. Everyone I know whose tried it didn't keep it long. I don't like Edgy 64 either (I'm stuck with it though) cuz it's a crash master but Blender runs great on it plus it's about 25% faster on the render times than 32 bit.

Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 18:47
What's so bad about it? And if it is so bad, could you recommend a user-friendly 64 bit Linux distro?

RamboBaby
10-Jun-07, 19:54
All I know is that there's trouble around every corner with Feisty 64. I anit havin no pick-a-nick with Edgy either. My bios won't support 32 bit Linux though. I don't know what to tell you though other than all of my buddies have gone back to 32 bit Linux cuz 64 bit is way too buggy. 64 bit Blender is FAST and this is where I do all of my Blending. It doesn't have the propensity to crash like it does on Windoze either. I use Windoze partition for Adobe Apps and Linux partition for web and Blender. It provides me with a fairly descent balance but I don't like either OS worth a damn. 32 bit Linux is very reliable and Beryl isn't a bitch to get up and running the way it is on 64 bit either. Plus Ubuntu Studio isn't available in 64 bit.

My buddy installs Linux servers for telecommunications networks and he doesn't use 64 bit either. He even has 2 racks of servers in his basement handling telecommunications traffic from the Dominican Republic. That guy has a serious grip on most aspects of Linux and won't use 64 bit. Just ask around. I don't think everyone feels this way but everyone I know does, including me.

snelleeddy
10-Jun-07, 20:08
Why not use the SSE2 build from Eugene with Large Address Aware (http://www.graphicall.org/builds/builds/showbuild.php?action=show&id=419), It enables you to use more then 2GbRAM and runs/renders way faster. So no need for 64 bit then I think.

cheers

Lord of the Rings Junkie
10-Jun-07, 20:12
The sim isn't using more than 2 Gigs of RAM...

Lord of the Rings Junkie
14-Jun-07, 14:20
All I know is that there's trouble around every corner with Feisty 64. I anit havin no pick-a-nick with Edgy either. My bios won't support 32 bit Linux though. I don't know what to tell you though other than all of my buddies have gone back to 32 bit Linux cuz 64 bit is way too buggy. 64 bit Blender is FAST and this is where I do all of my Blending. It doesn't have the propensity to crash like it does on Windoze either. I use Windoze partition for Adobe Apps and Linux partition for web and Blender. It provides me with a fairly descent balance but I don't like either OS worth a damn. 32 bit Linux is very reliable and Beryl isn't a bitch to get up and running the way it is on 64 bit either. Plus Ubuntu Studio isn't available in 64 bit.

My buddy installs Linux servers for telecommunications networks and he doesn't use 64 bit either. He even has 2 racks of servers in his basement handling telecommunications traffic from the Dominican Republic. That guy has a serious grip on most aspects of Linux and won't use 64 bit. Just ask around. I don't think everyone feels this way but everyone I know does, including me.None of what you just said tells me WHY your friends don't use 64 bit Linux. What's the problem, perhaps whatever it is might not be an issue with me.

On another note, I tried that softbody fluid interaction thing. I haven't a clue as to many of the softbody controls, but after tinkering with it I wasn't even able to get the fluid to deflect the softbody, much less have the softbody effect the fluid. softbody_fluid.blend (http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/softbody_fluid.blend)

PapaSmurf
14-Jun-07, 14:38
well, to start with you really need to look at my file. http://uploader.polorix.net//files/152/fluidsoftbodycollision.blend which mimics the good doctor's rig. Change the output dir to C: if you dont have a D: drive.

The softbody has be to set as an Obstacle to deflect the fluid domain. I dont think a softbody in the middle of a box of fluid is gonna do much, so use an Inflow to spit out the fluid..gently..

RamboBaby
14-Jun-07, 14:45
Crashes, freezes, unavailable software that they're accustomed to using, it's a bit like using Blender SVN which is fun to play with but don't use it for seerious works unless you're prepared to accept the consequences. 64 bit is still very much experimental at this point, even for the big boys like Microsoft. You show me one happy Vista customer and I'll show you someone who's either being remunerated by Microsoft or doesn't have any real computer experience.

Here's an example: You can't install Wine under Ubuntu64. That's a windoze emulator for those of you out of the know. This means that you can't run any windoze programs under Ubuntu 64 like you can under 32 bit. Need to use CinePaint? Too bad, so sad, solly cholly, not available in 64 bit. This list is very, VERY long! Up until a month ago you had to roll your own CVS version in order to get Blender to run under 64 bit Linux.

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Blender64 though.

PapaSmurf
14-Jun-07, 15:01
does anyone know if there is any relation to Resolution and Scale? In my blend file, my domain is 10 BU cube and resolution is 200, and the mesh is blocky. If I scale that down to 1 BU, but keep the resolution the same, will the water look...finer? the wiki says the resolution is the longest side of the domain. So that means my resolution is 20 X per BU, but what is X? Vertices?

Also, while baking, my header changes to say baking fluids x/60. X is some sort of progress, but how is Y computed? when I change end time to 1, it says 60. what is that?

<<looking for ideas to update wiki. havent touched it since August>>

Lord of the Rings Junkie
14-Jun-07, 16:21
does anyone know if there is any relation to Resolution and Scale? In my blend file, my domain is 10 BU cube and resolution is 200, and the mesh is blocky. If I scale that down to 1 BU, but keep the resolution the same, will the water look...finer? the wiki says the resolution is the longest side of the domain. So that means my resolution is 20 X per BU, but what is X? Vertices?

Also, while baking, my header changes to say baking fluids x/60. X is some sort of progress, but how is Y computed? when I change end time to 1, it says 60. what is that?

<<looking for ideas to update wiki. havent touched it since August>>Perhaps I need to write a fluid sim tutorial... The resolution controls how dense your fluid mesh is, and thus how detailed your fluid is. Real world size determines how long the longest edge of your domain is in meters. The actual scale of your domain in BU has no effect on this. For the same resolution, a fluid mesh in a larger real world domain will be denser than in a smaller one.

The x/60 is the baking progress. Basically it's saying X frames out of 60 have baked. Start and end times have nothing to do with how many frames are baked. If you set start to 0, and end to 1, you will simulate 1 second of fluid motion. If you have Blender set to make 250 frames at 25 fps, the fluid will be in slow motion, and the 1 second fluid sim will play over the course of ten seconds. If you change the end time to 10 to match the 250 frames at 25 fps, the simulation will be real-time since you set 10 seconds of fluid motion to simulate.

PapaSmurf
14-Jun-07, 17:40
ty. wiki updated. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/Fluid_Simulation

sorry, but i still dont understand resolution. Suppose I have two domains (in different blend files). One is 10x10x10 and another is 1x1x1. If both have a resolution of 200, are both going to take the same amount of time to compute, and are both going to look the same?

ps-dont bake the softbody

Some examples would be gladly appreciated!!!!!

Lord of the Rings Junkie
14-Jun-07, 17:57
Suppose I have two domains (in different blend files). One is 10x10x10 and another is 1x1x1. If both have a resolution of 200, are both going to take the same amount of time to compute, and are both going to look the same?Yes. Blender scale has nothing to do with it, the real world value is what says how much water is in the domain. (i.e. a cup sized amount vs. a bucket sized amount vs. a swimming pool sized amount.)

[Edit]
If your frame-rate is 25 frames per second, and ending time is 4.0 seconds, then the baking will end at frame 100. Not exactly true. The baking will end at frame 100 if you have set Blender to make 100 frames. The simulation will always compute over however many frames Blender is set to animate for. So if you set it up with 4 frames, the entire 4 seconds would simulate over 4 frames.

PapaSmurf
14-Jun-07, 18:18
i get it. two pictures would be great of a coffee cup (100mm across) being filled by resolution X and another with liquid at resolution Y... (hint hint)

Lord of the Rings Junkie
14-Jun-07, 19:48
lol, ok, you got me! The top picture is res 70 and the bottom one is res 200. Click the pictures for a 2 second video of each at 1/5 real-time.

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/res70.jpg (http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/70.avi)

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/res200.jpg (http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/200.avi)

PapaSmurf
14-Jun-07, 20:15
Thank you LOTRJ! Your work is now immortal: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/Fluid_Simulation#Domain
did u happen to catch your render time/duration, so our readers can compare and choose?

Lord of the Rings Junkie
15-Jun-07, 17:53
Thank you LOTRJ! Your work is now immortal: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/Fluid_Simulation#Domain
did u happen to catch your render time/duration, so our readers can compare and choose?Cool! If I upload renders with a more subsurfed handle could you replace those?:o

As for the bake time, it is so dependent on system RAM, CPU, and the scene being simulated that it would hardly be fair to post benchmark times. It really can vary that much.

[Edit]

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/70_fixed.jpg

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/19/200_fixed.jpg

Jeepster
15-Jun-07, 18:04
you know, fluid simulations can be much better, even with a low resolution, if u use particles...
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=96105
that fluid sim had a resolution that was lower than 100, i think and yet the results looked like it was baked at a high res. :)

Lord of the Rings Junkie
15-Jun-07, 18:08
Particles are one part of the fluid sim that I don't have a handle on yet, perhaps you could fill me in on that Jeepster? I tried using them and just got a white haze that blocked my fluid from view...:(

Jeepster
15-Jun-07, 19:37
take a look at the .blend of the scene i had
http://dominomf.com/smcfiles/Jeepster%5B%5D_fluidsimtest.blend
i find that the settings i used there usually work for all of my fluid sims :)
note that there's a small plane somewhere in there for the particle settings

almux
16-Jun-07, 06:17
Hi folks!

It is the second time i download a .blend to render... and i don't get else than a single blank or flat image: 1black scare with Jeepster's file this time.
Any special setting to make before trying to render?

Lord of the Rings Junkie
16-Jun-07, 09:58
His renderer is set to Yafray, make sure you have that installed. Oh yeah, make sure you bake the fluid first.:D

almux
16-Jun-07, 17:34
His renderer is set to Yafray, make sure you have that installed. Oh yeah, make sure you bake the fluid first.:D

:o How is Yafray (something like a independant renderer plugin or so? :confused:) to get... and is it OSX compatible?
:eek::o Baking the fluid first... hum...! To wich temperature should my oven be set?
More seriously: i clicked on "back" for a try... but i'm ignorant of that process... so all i got was an error message...

snelleeddy
16-Jun-07, 17:41
http://www.yafray.org/index.php?s=2

google is your friend, and indeed an independant renderer but that has been fully implemented in Blender so not really independant.

Lord of the Rings Junkie
16-Jun-07, 18:43
Baking the fluid first... hum...! To wich temperature should my oven be set?
More seriously: i clicked on "back" for a try... but i'm ignorant of that process... so all i got was an error message...See the little field with the path name at the bottom? Make a new folder and navigate to it in that box. Then hit bake.

PapaSmurf
16-Jun-07, 22:54
@almux: you seriously need to read http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/Fluid_Simulation and see the Process section.

Lord of the Rings Junkie
16-Jun-07, 23:20
Much better, many thanks for updating the pictures.:)

hevonen
17-Jun-07, 10:39
I haven't managed to bake a fluid that takes more than 1GB, not even with LargeAddressAware build. I guess it is a limitation of current fluid engine. Also, note that first frame may well take only a few hundred MBs but latter ones go over one GB. That's why your bake fails. Try to bake one frame at the middle or end at full res so you'll see if it works.

I have noted that used memory doubles when you set surface subdivision from 1 to 2. I think using "generate particles" will also add memory requirements, as they increase surface area and complexity. Ordinary fluid-sim generated particles probably eat less memory.

almux
17-Jun-07, 10:39
Thanks... I will give an eye on all this stuffy stuff! ;)

PapaSmurf
17-Jun-07, 10:50
ty hevonen. wiki updated. ur welcome LOTRJ.

hevonen
17-Jun-07, 14:06
Just to fix my outlandish&exaggerated claims, changing subdivision from 1 to 2 doesn't really double the memory (at least in simple cases), but it does add to it.

I made a quick&simple test case, and on resolution 100 Blender said baking would take 97MB. Actual memory used by Blender executable during single frame bake was 177MB (naturally not all of this is used by fluidsim, but Blender with empty scene takes around 23MB). This was with subdivision 1 and particles at 3. With subdivision on 2 actual memory was 244MB, which is around 28% more. I presume this will go up if you use low viscosity fluids, which tend to shoots lots of particles.

Blender fluids use adaptive grid, so it may be that complex scenes with obstacles need more memory than Blender thinks. I don't know how fluid sim code actually uses memory so I can't say for sure.

Generally, if you are approaching 1GB in task manager you may want to tune down surface subdivision level and baking resolution.

edit: typo

dodgydavec
17-Jun-07, 18:49
lotrjunkie, if you want a 64 bit linux that is user friendly I can recommend simplyMEPIS. It just works and lets you do huge fluid sims. :D